Good Coach - Bad Coach

[bucketbutt]

Consistent positive reinforcement is a more useful tool overall, and should certainly be employed more regularly than other alternatives, but nobody is going to perform at their best solely in pursuit of that carrot. Pain-avoidance is a very strong motivator. In short, I think you need both to get a kid's best.

Believe me I'm not against utilizing "Cardinal Sin" reminders as in wind sprints, laps, monster crawls etc... to make a point. A little PE serves a two fold purpose. Luckily my DD's grades have not yet been affected by her extracurricular activities if so some of her privileges will be taken away.

I'm no expert just utilizing my real world experience and applying them to my kids sports. I know in general positive reinforcement would be the best case scenario but with all the diversity out there it prolly is not feasible.

Everyone is motivated by different standards we need to find out what motivates who and use it too our best ability.

[Skarp]

Believe me I'm not against utilizing "Cardinal Sin" reminders as in wind sprints, laps, monster crawls etc... to make a point.

Those work.

I think we're pretty much in agreement, but I do think that there are a few limited circumstances where some degree of humiliation is called for. For instance, where a kid pouts or cries because she doesn't get her way, or purposefully underperforms on the field to demonstrate her displeasure about something (necessarily at the expense of her teammates), she is asking to be embarrassed...because her conduct is manifestly embarrassing (whether she realizes it or not) and therefore deserves to be treated as such.

[Demonboy]

Consistent positive reinforcement is a more useful tool overall, and should certainly be employed more regularly than other alternatives, but nobody is going to perform at their best solely in pursuit of that carrot. Pain-avoidance is a very strong motivator. In short, I think you need both to get a kid's best.

I think we may be talking past each other to a certain extent...partially because we haven't defined our terms. By humiliation I don't mean tactics designed to undermine a kid's very feelings of self-worth...merely enough to make them feel a little bad about things that they should feel a little bad about (or a lot bad if that is what is warranted). If my kid comes home with an F on her report card, she has earned herself a healthy dose of humiliation. Hey, it's humiliating to dress up in a clown suit and hold a sign in front of a fast-food restaurant...but that's what F students wind up doing, so why shouldn't I give her a fair taste of it now while the problem is still addressable?

So no, browbeating and personal attacks aren't called for, but all carrot and no stick isn't going to get them where they need to be either?

Totally agree. You have hit on the very core of our team philosophy.

[Martin]

Skarp, in my mind there is a big difference between punishment for breaking team rules and humiliation for failing to perform at an acceptable standard. You mentioned the need to define terms. I found this definition for humiliation on Wordnet:

1. state of disgrace or loss of self-respect
2. strong feelings of embarrassment [syn: chagrin]
3. an instance in which you are caused to lose your prestige or self-respect; "he had to undergo one humiliation after another"
4. depriving one of self-esteem

The only definition that I find remotely defensible for application in youth sports is #2.

The original post suggested bad coaches will "motivate the athlete to expend her energies in self-protection and risk avoidance, rather than personal excellence. They will breed jealousy, selfishness and mistrust on the team. They will snuff out dreams and make the athlete fear failure on and off the playing field. A bad coach will leave the athlete diminished and embittered."

BB said that negative reinforcement "will lead to immediate acceptable performance (just enough to avoid verbal humiliation and fear)." Sounds pretty close to the definition of a bad coach in the original post and pretty close to the definition of humiliation.

I don't think there is very much difference between any of us. However, "humiliation" is a loaded word with many negative connotations that I don't believe any of us wants coaches to embrace.

[RayR]

Interesting thread...

To be more specific, what is everyone's take on this:

Is it humiliating to have players run laps if they do not get a bunt down in a situational practice setting as way to apply some pressure to mimic game conditions? Or is it merely using the stick as opposed to the carrot?

[Skarp]

Skarp, in my mind there is a big difference between punishment for breaking team rules and humiliation for failing to perform at an acceptable standard. You mentioned the need to define terms. I found this definition for humiliation on Wordnet:

1. state of disgrace or loss of self-respect
2. strong feelings of embarrassment [syn: chagrin]
3. an instance in which you are caused to lose your prestige or self-respect; "he had to undergo one humiliation after another"
4. depriving one of self-esteem

The only definition that I find remotely defensible for application in youth sports is #2.

The original post suggested bad coaches will "motivate the athlete to expend her energies in self-protection and risk avoidance, rather than personal excellence. They will breed jealousy, selfishness and mistrust on the team. They will snuff out dreams and make the athlete fear failure on and off the playing field. A bad coach will leave the athlete diminished and embittered."

BB said that negative reinforcement "will lead to immediate acceptable performance (just enough to avoid verbal humiliation and fear)." Sounds pretty close to the definition of a bad coach in the original post and pretty close to the definition of humiliation.

I don't think there is very much difference between any of us. However, "humiliation" is a loaded word with many negative connotations that I don't believe any of us wants coaches to embrace.

With the caveat that I still haven't read the OP, I can't find much to argue with there that isn't mere semantics. I especially agree with the comment re risk avoidance...kids can become so fearful of failure that they forget to try to succeed.

I will add this though. Many kids (and adults, myself included) can stall out in a comfort zone from which no mere words of encouragement or potential for success or positive feedback are sufficient motivation to break out of. Often it takes negative consequences--or more often the simple threat of negative consequences--to cause that forward movement to occur.

[badcallblue]

I have given you all my perspective as a parent. So now I will share my views as a coach. I have really only coached in rec but coaching is coaching. As a rec ball coach it is my job to get the new players involved and understand the game, make the average ones above average and the good ones into All-Stars and Travel Ball players. Dozens of my former players are playing travel ball now. Several are playing on very good teams. I can take credit for only a few things. 1) I help keep them interested in softball (2) I applied what better coaches taught me and (3) I instilled confidence in them with positive reinforcement. The rest was their heart and natural ability along with their parental support.

Coaching should be an honor but too many coaches coach for their own accolades and personal self esteem. At the end of the day when Sally struck out with the game on the line do you ever hear a coach say to the team "maybe I could have shown her something different and I cost us the game?" Hell no but when they miss a cut off throw the coach will not hesitate to bark at them. Guess what Mr. Future Never Going To Coach The Olympics, you apparently didn't get your message across in practice or she would have it her cut off !!!! Then again maybe she tuned you out since she and the rest of the team are tired of hearing your useless rhetoric. Ever think of that ????????

[Clean_up]

Interesting thread...

To be more specific, what is everyone's take on this:

Is it humiliating to have players run laps if they do not get a bunt down in a situational practice setting as way to apply some pressure to mimic game conditions? Or is it merely using the stick as opposed to the carrot?

Sounds reasonable to me.... That's what practices are for, to build their skills, both mental and physical. Plus, the running won't hurt - gets them into better condition. Just the same as when kids are dropping balls, not focusing or goofing off in practice -- after a couple of laps, suicides and/or sit-ups it's amazing how their hand-eye coordination magically comes together

[badcallblue]

Sounds reasonable to me.... That's what practices are for, to build their skills, both mental and physical. Plus, the running won't hurt - gets them into better condition. Just the same as when kids are dropping balls, not focusing or goofing off in practice -- after a couple of laps, suicides and/or sit-ups it's amazing how their hand-eye coordination magically comes together

Totally agree with this statement. Just don't agree with coaches who berate our DD's.

Would you let their Husband or BF's talk like that too them when they get older ?

I know I wouldn't. Plus my kid won't "be use to it" !!!!!!!

[Skarp]

I have really only coached in rec but coaching is coaching.

Coaching travel ball isn't remotely the same as coaching rec. The kids/families playing travel affirmatively went looking for higher expectations. They want to be challenged, and they want to be pushed.

The touchy-feely coaches at the rec level all suck (haven't seen one who didn't), and they don't graduate to travel (haven't seen one who did). Travel coaches are by definition coaches who let Sally know when she missed her cutoff (and no, it's not always the coach's fault that she did).

Then again maybe she tuned you out since she and the rest of the team are tired of hearing your useless rhetoric. Ever think of that ????????

I think you forgot to announce that you were putting your rec parent hat back on.

So herein lies the semantical rub..."humiliation" has been defined down to mean anything causing precious dd to experience the slightest discomfort. As a coach (former, not active), I would willingly tolerate parents like you for about 2 seconds. And (assuming I coach again in the future) any player who ever tunes me out because she is tired of my rhetoric would be wise to find another team where she finds the rhetoric more appealing...and will be invited to do so in very short order.

And no I have never browbeaten or humiliated a single kid on one of my teams...I've only been accused of it by parents who don't approve when I remind precious Sally for the 50th time that she needs to hit the damn cutoff.

BTW, every rec coach who lasted more than a season has numerous kids who went on to play travel. That's usually no reflection on the coach either way...just the law of large numbers. In fact the causal relationship could often be precisely the opposite...that players leave rec because they are tired of not learning anything from their coaches and tired of playing on teams where the players aren't pushed to get better and to take the game at least somewhat seriously.