Send a message?

[DirtyRiders]

Played sports(lots of them) and certainly know what was acceptable when I played(early 80's) is not now. So chin music you think it is ethical(and/or legal) to ask a minor to throw an object at high velocity at another minor?

It is one thing for adults (ie major league baseball) to go head hunting, setting boundries etc, completely another thing to have an adult in a position of authority(coach) to ask a child to assault another child.

Am I missing anything???

BTW chin if you are questioning my machismo- I spent a decade as an Army Paratrooper and Light Fighter

JonRiv...As I stated originally, I wasn’t sure what the response should be. But getting the 3rd out when our Catcher could have been injured does not make it even. The runner actually folded her arms as she barreled into her so I have a hard believing it was not intentional. Our coaches did not do their jobs in my opinion of having our catchers back as they didn’t argue the call with the ump. If you played the game, I’m confused as to why the idea of hitting a girl in the backside is somehow considered an Assault. There are unwritten rules on how to have players backs and there always will be. Maybe it’s not a pitch to the back side...maybe it’s a hard slide or a hard tag but it does happen even at a young age.

[jonriv]

Look the coaches should have said something that is correct. Escalating with a beaning maybe some “unwritten rule”, has no place in a 14u game. It is also against the written rules. If a player does it on their own a responsible coach would bench that player. Which I have seen done several time- by outstanding coaches that don’t put up with that BS. What’s wrong with a pitch in the butt- when it misses an hits the head, back of the neck etc. it is irresponsible. These kids don’t come up with this on their own, they learn it from Neadanderthals like you.

So let’s see how this plays out- next time around pitcher send a message pitch. One of three things happen 1. Your ace gets kicked out. 2. The next inning the other team ratchets up the retaliation and so on. Or 3. The batter is paralyzed from a pitch that missed the butt- but hey they got the message


You want to send a message. Hit a home run, strike them out. Get over it and yourselves

[DirtyRiders]

JonRiv...it’s now obvious to me that you have completely forgot about the original player that could have been hurt. Your comments have shown your lack of concern for her and more about just keeping the peace. It’s not a bad thing I just doubt you’re the kinda of dude I ever would have wanted to play with or coach my kids, but no hard feelings.

[jonriv]

I do care about the original player. As mentioned a few years ago that player was my daughter. The runner should have been ejected and the catchers coach should have brought it up with the ump, if not satisfied with the answer then the UIC and then the tournament coordinator. Which is what I did. Starting a beaming war and sending messages solves nothing and does nothing for the catcher, but potentially puts a lot of 14u girls on both teams in danger- all because some over the hill wannabe tough guys want to have a pissing contest.

The coach in this instance was wrong for not standing up for their player and holding the ump accountable. Sending a “message” is BS. Far too often the message is misunderstood or misread.

[jtat32]

FWIW, 13 y/o girls will sometimes panic and forget to slide when the ball beats them to home plate. There are specific slides that need to be taught and practiced for that situation. Most 14U players haven't been given that instruction and practice yet. Better coached teams have, but even they won't be 100% on execution.

In general, parents in the stands are wrong much more than they are right when it comes to judging whether certain plays are dirty or accidental - especially at the younger ages.

Not saying that intentionally dirty play doesn't occur, it's just less common than most parents think. In those rare cases when a message needed to be sent, the players usually figured it out. The best message is always scoreboard, though, and dirty teams are usually bad teams.

[Defty]

FWIW, 13 y/o girls will sometimes panic and forget to slide when the ball beats them to home plate. There are specific slides that need to be taught and practiced for that situation. Most 14U players haven't been given that instruction and practice yet. Better coached teams have, but even they won't be 100% on execution.

In general, parents in the stands are wrong much more than they are right when it comes to judging whether certain plays are dirty or accidental - especially at the younger ages.

Not saying that intentionally dirty play doesn't occur, it's just less common than most parents think. In those rare cases when a message needed to be sent, the players usually figured it out. The best message is always scoreboard, though, and dirty teams are usually bad teams.

Jtat, you literally just made stuff up and spoke about it like fact.

"Most 14U players haven't been given that instruction yet"

"In general, parents in the stands are wrong [...]".

"[...] it's just less common than mosts parents think."

"[...] dirty teams are usually bad teams"

[Defty]

Looking for opinions on if it’s ok to send a message to other team and when it’s ok. Here’s an example. 2 outs with a runner on 2B in a 14u friendly. Girl hits a come backer to pitcher. Pitcher overthrows 1B and runner on 2nd heads for home. RF picks up the ball and fires home. Runner doesn’t slide and proceeds to run over Catcher. Catchers helmet goes flying and runner ends up on top of Catcher. Catcher holds onto the ball so girl is out. The runner does not get ejected, does not check on Catcher, and no one from the dugout checks on Catcher. IMO our manager should have been more animated to protect his player but when everyone realizes Catcher is ok play resumes as nothing happened. Heres my question.....who thinks the 1st pitch to their first batter the next inning should have been drilled in the back? It seems like the game has changed because back in the day that would have been a no brainer

I think one of the problems here, and probably one of the reasons that you are getting so much push back from Jonriv is that this is an "unwritten rule". Which means it's just understood and goes un-discussed openly. You are attempting to openly talk about something that is controversial. Why do you think MLB pitchers and managers always argue with the Umpire when the pitcher gets tossed for "Sending a message"? It's supposed to look unintentional, but the umpires know what's happening because there are unwritten rules.

Also, I'm not sure if you are talking about hitting a player to send a message or just brushing them off the plate with something nice and inside. Either way, you will have people that say its part of the sport and have no problem with it, on one end of the spectrum, and people that would want to lock em' up like Jonriv, on the other end of the spectrum.. and a bunch of opinions in between

IMO unwritten rules likes these have served to create balance when umpires and rules don't seem to be doing the job of protecting the players. I don't like the aspect of hurting a person for sport, but I also don't like players, my daughter in particular, getting hurt during a play that seems intentionally dirty, and it being chalked up to an accident or part of the sport. I guess the grey line is that girls get hit by pitches all the time, so by "sending a message" you are taking a measured risk that the result will just be a bruise and a sent message. The reality is however, this unwritten rule has withstood the test of time in baseball and has the potential of doing the same in softball. Only time will tell.

[eclipse09]

FWIW, 13 y/o girls will sometimes panic and forget to slide when the ball beats them to home plate. There are specific slides that need to be taught and practiced for that situation. Most 14U players haven't been given that instruction and practice yet. Better coached teams have, but even they won't be 100% on execution.

In general, parents in the stands are wrong much more than they are right when it comes to judging whether certain plays are dirty or accidental - especially at the younger ages.

Not saying that intentionally dirty play doesn't occur, it's just less common than most parents think. In those rare cases when a message needed to be sent, the players usually figured it out. The best message is always scoreboard, though, and dirty teams are usually bad teams.

Jtat, you literally just made stuff up and spoke about it like fact.

"Most 14U players haven't been given that instruction yet"

"In general, parents in the stands are wrong [...]".

"[...] it's just less common than mosts parents think."

"[...] dirty teams are usually bad teams"

As my daughter says.....it's fax

[jonriv]

Looking for opinions on if it’s ok to send a message to other team and when it’s ok. Here’s an example. 2 outs with a runner on 2B in a 14u friendly. Girl hits a come backer to pitcher. Pitcher overthrows 1B and runner on 2nd heads for home. RF picks up the ball and fires home. Runner doesn’t slide and proceeds to run over Catcher. Catchers helmet goes flying and runner ends up on top of Catcher. Catcher holds onto the ball so girl is out. The runner does not get ejected, does not check on Catcher, and no one from the dugout checks on Catcher. IMO our manager should have been more animated to protect his player but when everyone realizes Catcher is ok play resumes as nothing happened. Heres my question.....who thinks the 1st pitch to their first batter the next inning should have been drilled in the back? It seems like the game has changed because back in the day that would have been a no brainer

I think one of the problems here, and probably one of the reasons that you are getting so much push back from Jonriv is that this is an "unwritten rule". Which means it's just understood and goes un-discussed openly. You are attempting to openly talk about something that is controversial. Why do you think MLB pitchers and managers always argue with the Umpire when the pitcher gets tossed for "Sending a message"? It's supposed to look unintentional, but the umpires know what's happening because there are unwritten rules.

Also, I'm not sure if you are talking about hitting a player to send a message or just brushing them off the plate with something nice and inside. Either way, you will have people that say its part of the sport and have no problem with it, on one end of the spectrum, and people that would want to lock em' up like Jonriv, on the other end of the spectrum.. and a bunch of opinions in between

IMO unwritten rules likes these have served to create balance when umpires and rules don't seem to be doing the job of protecting the players. I don't like the aspect of hurting a person for sport, but I also don't like players, my daughter in particular, getting hurt during a play that seems intentionally dirty, and it being chalked up to an accident or part of the sport. I guess the grey line is that girls get hit by pitches all the time, so by "sending a message" you are taking a measured risk that the result will just be a bruise and a sent message. The reality is however, this unwritten rule has withstood the test of time in baseball and has the potential of doing the same in softball. Only time will tell.

I think there is a big difference between "unwritten rules" in the major leagues vs in youth sports. The "adults" are supposed to teach the kids the right way and insure the written rules are being applied properly. These are kids. As also mentioned prior- too many times "intention" is as much perception as reality and the escalation of 'messages" goes unchecked and accomplishes nothing(as is the case in MLB many times.

So one unwritten rule in baseball for many years was that if someone hit a homerun, the next time they would be plunked. Would that be OK? Where do you draw the line. The problem with "unwritten rules" is that many times different people are working under different sets of "unwritten rules"

My basic premise is that these kind of "messages" have no place in youth sports. Kids do not come up with it on their own and when they are taught they do not have the proper judgment to apply "justice" in a proportional way. IMO it is teaching kids the wrong way to play the game and putting these children in unnecessary risk.

[Defty]

Looking for opinions on if it’s ok to send a message to other team and when it’s ok. Here’s an example. 2 outs with a runner on 2B in a 14u friendly. Girl hits a come backer to pitcher. Pitcher overthrows 1B and runner on 2nd heads for home. RF picks up the ball and fires home. Runner doesn’t slide and proceeds to run over Catcher. Catchers helmet goes flying and runner ends up on top of Catcher. Catcher holds onto the ball so girl is out. The runner does not get ejected, does not check on Catcher, and no one from the dugout checks on Catcher. IMO our manager should have been more animated to protect his player but when everyone realizes Catcher is ok play resumes as nothing happened. Heres my question.....who thinks the 1st pitch to their first batter the next inning should have been drilled in the back? It seems like the game has changed because back in the day that would have been a no brainer

I think one of the problems here, and probably one of the reasons that you are getting so much push back from Jonriv is that this is an "unwritten rule". Which means it's just understood and goes un-discussed openly. You are attempting to openly talk about something that is controversial. Why do you think MLB pitchers and managers always argue with the Umpire when the pitcher gets tossed for "Sending a message"? It's supposed to look unintentional, but the umpires know what's happening because there are unwritten rules.

Also, I'm not sure if you are talking about hitting a player to send a message or just brushing them off the plate with something nice and inside. Either way, you will have people that say its part of the sport and have no problem with it, on one end of the spectrum, and people that would want to lock em' up like Jonriv, on the other end of the spectrum.. and a bunch of opinions in between

IMO unwritten rules likes these have served to create balance when umpires and rules don't seem to be doing the job of protecting the players. I don't like the aspect of hurting a person for sport, but I also don't like players, my daughter in particular, getting hurt during a play that seems intentionally dirty, and it being chalked up to an accident or part of the sport. I guess the grey line is that girls get hit by pitches all the time, so by "sending a message" you are taking a measured risk that the result will just be a bruise and a sent message. The reality is however, this unwritten rule has withstood the test of time in baseball and has the potential of doing the same in softball. Only time will tell.

I think there is a big difference between "unwritten rules" in the major leagues vs in youth sports. The "adults" are supposed to teach the kids the right way and insure the written rules are being applied properly. These are kids. As also mentioned prior- too many times "intention" is as much perception as reality and the escalation of 'messages" goes unchecked and accomplishes nothing(as is the case in MLB many times.

So one unwritten rule in baseball for many years was that if someone hit a homerun, the next time they would be plunked. Would that be OK? Where do you draw the line. The problem with "unwritten rules" is that many times different people are working under different sets of "unwritten rules"

My basic premise is that these kind of "messages" have no place in youth sports. Kids do not come up with it on their own and when they are taught they do not have the proper judgment to apply "justice" in a proportional way. IMO it is teaching kids the wrong way to play the game and putting these children in unnecessary risk.

Would this be okay to teach in youth baseball? I feel like your answer would also be no, but in the same breathe you call teaching kids to retaliate "teaching kids the wrong way to play the game." Although isn't this in fact how the game is played as they get older?

My point isn't that it should be viewed as OK. Moreso that "OK" is in the eye of the beholder and if you want the needle to move in your direction you have offer alternative or improved solutions. By arguing with people you only put them on the defense and they no longer hear you or your message. It then becomes only about arguing for the sake of arguing. So what is the end game here, to improve youth sports or be the better arguer?