Send a message?

[110%]

So the pitch gets away from your 14 year old PITCHER and it hits the next hitter who's only crime is being on the same team as the offending runner and gets hit in the head and is killed. All because you directed her to drill the hitter. This PITCHER has to live with the fact she intentionally hit a person and killed her. Or ended her softball career. You may not care, you may be a macho old school jackass coach but these are 14 year old girls. Your issue is with the umpire and or tournament director.

Really a stupid comment

[Defty]

So the pitch gets away from your 14 year old PITCHER and it hits the next hitter who's only crime is being on the same team as the offending runner and gets hit in the head and is killed. All because you directed her to drill the hitter. This PITCHER has to live with the fact she intentionally hit a person and killed her. Or ended her softball career. You may not care, you may be a macho old school jackass coach but these are 14 year old girls. Your issue is with the umpire and or tournament director.

Really a stupid comment

This is a nice try and shaming and over exaggeration to prove your point, but the question was fair and addresses a reality in softball. You added nothing to the convo IMO

[Defty]

Looking for opinions on if it’s ok to send a message to other team and when it’s ok. Here’s an example. 2 outs with a runner on 2B in a 14u friendly. Girl hits a come backer to pitcher. Pitcher overthrows 1B and runner on 2nd heads for home. RF picks up the ball and fires home. Runner doesn’t slide and proceeds to run over Catcher. Catchers helmet goes flying and runner ends up on top of Catcher. Catcher holds onto the ball so girl is out. The runner does not get ejected, does not check on Catcher, and no one from the dugout checks on Catcher. IMO our manager should have been more animated to protect his player but when everyone realizes Catcher is ok play resumes as nothing happened. Heres my question.....who thinks the 1st pitch to their first batter the next inning should have been drilled in the back? It seems like the game has changed because back in the day that would have been a no brainer

I think one of the problems here, and probably one of the reasons that you are getting so much push back from Jonriv is that this is an "unwritten rule". Which means it's just understood and goes un-discussed openly. You are attempting to openly talk about something that is controversial. Why do you think MLB pitchers and managers always argue with the Umpire when the pitcher gets tossed for "Sending a message"? It's supposed to look unintentional, but the umpires know what's happening because there are unwritten rules.

Also, I'm not sure if you are talking about hitting a player to send a message or just brushing them off the plate with something nice and inside. Either way, you will have people that say its part of the sport and have no problem with it, on one end of the spectrum, and people that would want to lock em' up like Jonriv, on the other end of the spectrum.. and a bunch of opinions in between

IMO unwritten rules likes these have served to create balance when umpires and rules don't seem to be doing the job of protecting the players. I don't like the aspect of hurting a person for sport, but I also don't like players, my daughter in particular, getting hurt during a play that seems intentionally dirty, and it being chalked up to an accident or part of the sport. I guess the grey line is that girls get hit by pitches all the time, so by "sending a message" you are taking a measured risk that the result will just be a bruise and a sent message. The reality is however, this unwritten rule has withstood the test of time in baseball and has the potential of doing the same in softball. Only time will tell.

I think there is a big difference between "unwritten rules" in the major leagues vs in youth sports. The "adults" are supposed to teach the kids the right way and insure the written rules are being applied properly. These are kids. As also mentioned prior- too many times "intention" is as much perception as reality and the escalation of 'messages" goes unchecked and accomplishes nothing(as is the case in MLB many times.

So one unwritten rule in baseball for many years was that if someone hit a homerun, the next time they would be plunked. Would that be OK? Where do you draw the line. The problem with "unwritten rules" is that many times different people are working under different sets of "unwritten rules"

My basic premise is that these kind of "messages" have no place in youth sports. Kids do not come up with it on their own and when they are taught they do not have the proper judgment to apply "justice" in a proportional way. IMO it is teaching kids the wrong way to play the game and putting these children in unnecessary risk.

Would this be okay to teach in youth baseball? I feel like your answer would also be no, but in the same breathe you call teaching kids to retaliate "teaching kids the wrong way to play the game." Although isn't this in fact how the game is played as they get older?

My point isn't that it should be viewed as OK. Moreso that "OK" is in the eye of the beholder and if you want the needle to move in your direction you have offer alternative or improved solutions. By arguing with people you only put them on the defense and they no longer hear you or your message. It then becomes only about arguing for the sake of arguing. So what is the end game here, to improve youth sports or be the better arguer?

Not OK in youth baseball either and most use baseball leagues have strict rules against it


You ask my solution and the answer is quite simple:

Coaches need to coach. Starting first regarding plays at home. As mentioned previously many of the collisions at home are not due to any malicious intent, but do to a fear of sliding and that many players are not taught when to, how to and what slide to you. Also players need to be taught that a Pete Rose/Ray Fosse collision is no longer the thing to do(despite what they might of heard from their fathers or grandfathers about knocking the ball out). Coaches need to let the parents know too.

Coaches need to enforce good sportsmanship. The problem with a brushback or beaning(besides the potential injury) is that it might also lead to the pitcher and possibly the coach being ejected. Embarrassing in a travel game, but costly in a high school or college game . Several states have Hs rules which call for the suspension of 1-2 games after an ejection. College coaches are fined.

My daughter’s travel coach had an excellent player who tended to slide a little late, perhaps some incidental contact-an elbow here and there. He pulled her aside and said “knock it out, you’re better than that, you want to known for being the good player you are, not looked down at as a dirty player. That’s what coaches do


As far as the “upper levels”. In the four years my daughter played in college I never saw a brush back or intention beaning( nor in high school)

Umpires need to enforce the rules. At early age groups I like when they explain calls and no calls. Tends to calm down the often ignorant peanut gallery

I think this is good info. For people Who care enough to try and sort through it all, having examples and info is really important. It provides background and foundation for making informed decisions when faced with similar situations.

[Defty]

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Collisions will always be part of the sport. If you collided with your own teammate after calling for the ball would you still want retaliation?

If the rules were you can't slide at all it would still happen. If the rules were you have to slide no matter what it would still happen. Now that we know this is going to continue happening what's the solution.

The main topic is protect the players. My approach to this is teach players how to correctly defend their positions in a manner which will keep them as safe as possible. There are mechanics that can keep you incredibly balanced and strong to be able to defend on coming runners.

From the examples in this discussion, we know people choose to handle things differently punishment wise or no punishment. There are parents who let their kids do anything and other parents who apply manners to the family while raising it. Can argue about it and discuss it but I think it's most important to recognize it exists. Probably will not change.

Rules have changed. When I played you had to make an attempt to get out of the way of the pitch. Now you don't have to move at all. Let the pitch hit you and you get first base. Who's ever argument here is to plug the next batter,...
Now most batters are told to stand there and get hit by the pitch, give it up for the team, and get to first base.
That in itself has inherent danger.
A 70 mile an hour pitch hitting a softball player is an over 90 mile an hour pitch in baseball. It weighs more and is larger. Want to talk about causing injuries.....who made that rule?

Playing in an era where we didn't wear helmets , played in shorts, and anytime defensively you had to slide to take out a double play you did. There were times, with a runner on 1st. we would bunt the runner would take off to second, we would slide into the first baseman so that they were unable to make the throw as the runner rounded second and went to Third. Yes that happened. Also the catcher could block the plate as long as the ball was flying towards the catcher you can get a really strong stance and let the runner know you were defending the plate. In fact always thought it's not just that you're going to try and score, you actually have to get through me the catcher to get to the plate. There were vicious attacks by players cleats, body slams and rolls. Now there are rules trying to protect players that are based on the opinion of the play. Where the ball is relative to the runner. Where the catcher is standing.

*These days by plugging the next batter you are not sending a message, you are sending a runner to first base.

More good info Sue! Well said.

At my daughters game today a runner slid and spiked the catchers foot and the catchers foot wasn’t even near the plate. It took the catcher out and ripped her gear. It seemed to be most certainly intentional. Thinking about this post I came to the same conclusion as you ended your post with... with coaches telling their batters to just stand their and take a hit for the team instead of trying to get out of the way, retaliating only feeds into the coaches hand. (<<< if the coach is who taught the runner to play dirty).

[eclipse09]

So the pitch gets away from your 14 year old PITCHER and it hits the next hitter who's only crime is being on the same team as the offending runner and gets hit in the head and is killed. All because you directed her to drill the hitter. This PITCHER has to live with the fact she intentionally hit a person and killed her. Or ended her softball career. You may not care, you may be a macho old school jackass coach but these are 14 year old girls. Your issue is with the umpire and or tournament director.

Really a stupid comment

This is a nice try and shaming and over exaggeration to prove your point, but the question was fair and addresses a reality in softball. You added nothing to the convo IMO

You reacted to it so it added something.

[Sue Trubovitz, Turbo]

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Like to add I support camaraderie and sportsmanship. In a situation where if one of my teammates had bulldozed a player on the other team at my next at bat would have asked if catcher was okay. Absolutely, with no doubt, after the game doing high-fives take a moment, ask if their player is okay.
Sportsmanship or dirty play are memorable.

[FastpitchPros]

When there is a collision at home... the defensive team player/fans/coaches have the right to be upset... especially the catcher's parents and the head coach.

However, the U1 umpire is in charge of home plate... if they believed it was intentional... they would have called it.

As noted in a previous comment...

"Collisions at home plate happen all the time, especially at the higher levels of play"

As most of you know... Catchers are the TOUGHEST players on the field...

In fact, I bet the catcher laughed and told the runner "Is that all you got" ... So that's probably why the "runner who was tagged out" never helped the catcher.

Retaliation teaches these young ladies NOTHING...

Good Sportsmanship teaches them EVERYTHING about life... both ON and OFF the field.

Let the umpires do their job... Just remember... they are always at least 50% right

Otherwise... you can become an umpire... and you will see that it is a tough job ... especially dealing with Crazy Softball Parents.

[Defty]

So the pitch gets away from your 14 year old PITCHER and it hits the next hitter who's only crime is being on the same team as the offending runner and gets hit in the head and is killed. All because you directed her to drill the hitter. This PITCHER has to live with the fact she intentionally hit a person and killed her. Or ended her softball career. You may not care, you may be a macho old school jackass coach but these are 14 year old girls. Your issue is with the umpire and or tournament director.

Really a stupid comment

This is a nice try and shaming and over exaggeration to prove your point, but the question was fair and addresses a reality in softball. You added nothing to the convo IMO

You reacted to it so it added something.

Not the same measurement I would use, but good for you for being able to reflect on what you said and feel like it was valuable to topic.

[xyzdude]

Speaking of "sending a message". Saw a game where a pitcher hit the opposing pitcher for the second time in the game. Think this was a 14U game. After the second HBP, a coach on the bench for the offensive team started yelling at the other team things like, payback is a bitch, just wait until she comes to bat, etc. I could not believe my ears that an adult sitting on the bench was advocating or inferring an intentional act of violence against a child! Is this where the game is these days? Is this a result of ignorant coaches who really don't understand the written rules of the game much less the so-called unwritten rules. BTW, hardly any of those rules even apply anymore in the pros not to mention college or lower levels. Does the OP think that the runner who did not slide was trying to truck the catcher? Does anyone even do that in youth softball these days these days?

[DirtyRiders]

Speaking of "sending a message". Saw a game where a pitcher hit the opposing pitcher for the second time in the game. Think this was a 14U game. After the second HBP, a coach on the bench for the offensive team started yelling at the other team things like, payback is a bitch, just wait until she comes to bat, etc. I could not believe my ears that an adult sitting on the bench was advocating or inferring an intentional act of violence against a child! Is this where the game is these days? Is this a result of ignorant coaches who really don't understand the written rules of the game much less the so-called unwritten rules. BTW, hardly any of those rules even apply anymore in the pros not to mention college or lower levels. Does the OP think that the runner who did not slide was trying to truck the catcher? Does anyone even do that in youth softball these days these days?

It’s a good question and no one will really know if there was intent, but at this level every kid is taught to slide on a close play and with the play right in front of her the runner chose not to so it is hard to determine what her mindset was. I realize my original question came across harsh but I do want to remind everyone no where did I say the coach should order a kid to hit someone. I do think it’s an important topic and there have been a lot of great responses. After hearing from everyone I will say that I believe the best response has been to use it as a coaching moment for both the catcher and the runner. They both could have been injured and they need to be taught to eliminate that aspect in the future. Your responses have also opened my eyes to seeing plays a little different as I watch them on the field and not to rush to judgement on the negative intent of anyone. I think the discussion obviously incites strong opinions but it’s important to hear both sides so I do disagree that any of the members who thought a pitch to the backside was ok are somehow macho, Neanderthal, a criminal, a bad coach or a bad parent. I believe that all parents and most coaches really want the best for the girls who play including everyone in this post. I think players especially as they get older will always have each other’s backs and will figure out how to do it themselves. Ultimately it is hard not to argue Scoredboard as the greatest equalizer!!!