Send a message?

[DirtyRiders]

Looking for opinions on if it’s ok to send a message to other team and when it’s ok. Here’s an example. 2 outs with a runner on 2B in a 14u friendly. Girl hits a come backer to pitcher. Pitcher overthrows 1B and runner on 2nd heads for home. RF picks up the ball and fires home. Runner doesn’t slide and proceeds to run over Catcher. Catchers helmet goes flying and runner ends up on top of Catcher. Catcher holds onto the ball so girl is out. The runner does not get ejected, does not check on Catcher, and no one from the dugout checks on Catcher. IMO our manager should have been more animated to protect his player but when everyone realizes Catcher is ok play resumes as nothing happened. Heres my question.....who thinks the 1st pitch to their first batter the next inning should have been drilled in the back? It seems like the game has changed because back in the day that would have been a no brainer

I think one of the problems here, and probably one of the reasons that you are getting so much push back from Jonriv is that this is an "unwritten rule". Which means it's just understood and goes un-discussed openly. You are attempting to openly talk about something that is controversial. Why do you think MLB pitchers and managers always argue with the Umpire when the pitcher gets tossed for "Sending a message"? It's supposed to look unintentional, but the umpires know what's happening because there are unwritten rules.

Also, I'm not sure if you are talking about hitting a player to send a message or just brushing them off the plate with something nice and inside. Either way, you will have people that say its part of the sport and have no problem with it, on one end of the spectrum, and people that would want to lock em' up like Jonriv, on the other end of the spectrum.. and a bunch of opinions in between

IMO unwritten rules likes these have served to create balance when umpires and rules don't seem to be doing the job of protecting the players. I don't like the aspect of hurting a person for sport, but I also don't like players, my daughter in particular, getting hurt during a play that seems intentionally dirty, and it being chalked up to an accident or part of the sport. I guess the grey line is that girls get hit by pitches all the time, so by "sending a message" you are taking a measured risk that the result will just be a bruise and a sent message. The reality is however, this unwritten rule has withstood the test of time in baseball and has the potential of doing the same in softball. Only time will tell.

I think there is a big difference between "unwritten rules" in the major leagues vs in youth sports. The "adults" are supposed to teach the kids the right way and insure the written rules are being applied properly. These are kids. As also mentioned prior- too many times "intention" is as much perception as reality and the escalation of 'messages" goes unchecked and accomplishes nothing(as is the case in MLB many times.

So one unwritten rule in baseball for many years was that if someone hit a homerun, the next time they would be plunked. Would that be OK? Where do you draw the line. The problem with "unwritten rules" is that many times different people are working under different sets of "unwritten rules"

My basic premise is that these kind of "messages" have no place in youth sports. Kids do not come up with it on their own and when they are taught they do not have the proper judgment to apply "justice" in a proportional way. IMO it is teaching kids the wrong way to play the game and putting these children in unnecessary risk.

JonRiv....What if the coach didn’t ask his or her pitcher to do anything and the Pitcher on her own decided to stick up for her teammate and throw one high and tight or hit someone in the backside? Are u ok with that as long as it isn’t coached by an adult to throw at a minor? It’s extremely rare and hardly ever happens so it’s mostly hypothetical but how do you fault that for having her teammates back?

[Chin Music]

That kid should be locked up making big rocks into little ones, right Jon?

[notthisagain]

Coach did nothing or not enough to deal with this. Go throw the ball at
the coach. Might be just a misdemeanor with a ticket.

[jonriv]

Looking for opinions on if it’s ok to send a message to other team and when it’s ok. Here’s an example. 2 outs with a runner on 2B in a 14u friendly. Girl hits a come backer to pitcher. Pitcher overthrows 1B and runner on 2nd heads for home. RF picks up the ball and fires home. Runner doesn’t slide and proceeds to run over Catcher. Catchers helmet goes flying and runner ends up on top of Catcher. Catcher holds onto the ball so girl is out. The runner does not get ejected, does not check on Catcher, and no one from the dugout checks on Catcher. IMO our manager should have been more animated to protect his player but when everyone realizes Catcher is ok play resumes as nothing happened. Heres my question.....who thinks the 1st pitch to their first batter the next inning should have been drilled in the back? It seems like the game has changed because back in the day that would have been a no brainer

I think one of the problems here, and probably one of the reasons that you are getting so much push back from Jonriv is that this is an "unwritten rule". Which means it's just understood and goes un-discussed openly. You are attempting to openly talk about something that is controversial. Why do you think MLB pitchers and managers always argue with the Umpire when the pitcher gets tossed for "Sending a message"? It's supposed to look unintentional, but the umpires know what's happening because there are unwritten rules.

Also, I'm not sure if you are talking about hitting a player to send a message or just brushing them off the plate with something nice and inside. Either way, you will have people that say its part of the sport and have no problem with it, on one end of the spectrum, and people that would want to lock em' up like Jonriv, on the other end of the spectrum.. and a bunch of opinions in between

IMO unwritten rules likes these have served to create balance when umpires and rules don't seem to be doing the job of protecting the players. I don't like the aspect of hurting a person for sport, but I also don't like players, my daughter in particular, getting hurt during a play that seems intentionally dirty, and it being chalked up to an accident or part of the sport. I guess the grey line is that girls get hit by pitches all the time, so by "sending a message" you are taking a measured risk that the result will just be a bruise and a sent message. The reality is however, this unwritten rule has withstood the test of time in baseball and has the potential of doing the same in softball. Only time will tell.

I think there is a big difference between "unwritten rules" in the major leagues vs in youth sports. The "adults" are supposed to teach the kids the right way and insure the written rules are being applied properly. These are kids. As also mentioned prior- too many times "intention" is as much perception as reality and the escalation of 'messages" goes unchecked and accomplishes nothing(as is the case in MLB many times.

So one unwritten rule in baseball for many years was that if someone hit a homerun, the next time they would be plunked. Would that be OK? Where do you draw the line. The problem with "unwritten rules" is that many times different people are working under different sets of "unwritten rules"

My basic premise is that these kind of "messages" have no place in youth sports. Kids do not come up with it on their own and when they are taught they do not have the proper judgment to apply "justice" in a proportional way. IMO it is teaching kids the wrong way to play the game and putting these children in unnecessary risk.

JonRiv....What if the coach didn’t ask his or her pitcher to do anything and the Pitcher on her own decided to stick up for her teammate and throw one high and tight or hit someone in the backside? Are u ok with that as long as it isn’t coached by an adult to throw at a minor? It’s extremely rare and hardly ever happens so it’s mostly hypothetical but how do you fault that for having her teammates back?

In this case if the ump did not eject the pitcher(which is probably the case) if If I where the coach I would pull the pitcher. The next thing a coach should do is then pull the player aside. I understand that you are sticking up for your teammate and I understand an respect that, but that this kind of retaliation is not part of the game and is not acceptable. You are better than that. If you need to send a message, show it wit a strikeout, a homer in, a victory. Stay above that nonsense

[jonriv]

That kid should be locked up making big rocks into little ones, right Jon?

If you read what I said it would be the feckless a”adult” that should be locked up for ordering another child to purposely throw at another child

[jonriv]

Looking for opinions on if it’s ok to send a message to other team and when it’s ok. Here’s an example. 2 outs with a runner on 2B in a 14u friendly. Girl hits a come backer to pitcher. Pitcher overthrows 1B and runner on 2nd heads for home. RF picks up the ball and fires home. Runner doesn’t slide and proceeds to run over Catcher. Catchers helmet goes flying and runner ends up on top of Catcher. Catcher holds onto the ball so girl is out. The runner does not get ejected, does not check on Catcher, and no one from the dugout checks on Catcher. IMO our manager should have been more animated to protect his player but when everyone realizes Catcher is ok play resumes as nothing happened. Heres my question.....who thinks the 1st pitch to their first batter the next inning should have been drilled in the back? It seems like the game has changed because back in the day that would have been a no brainer

I think one of the problems here, and probably one of the reasons that you are getting so much push back from Jonriv is that this is an "unwritten rule". Which means it's just understood and goes un-discussed openly. You are attempting to openly talk about something that is controversial. Why do you think MLB pitchers and managers always argue with the Umpire when the pitcher gets tossed for "Sending a message"? It's supposed to look unintentional, but the umpires know what's happening because there are unwritten rules.

Also, I'm not sure if you are talking about hitting a player to send a message or just brushing them off the plate with something nice and inside. Either way, you will have people that say its part of the sport and have no problem with it, on one end of the spectrum, and people that would want to lock em' up like Jonriv, on the other end of the spectrum.. and a bunch of opinions in between

IMO unwritten rules likes these have served to create balance when umpires and rules don't seem to be doing the job of protecting the players. I don't like the aspect of hurting a person for sport, but I also don't like players, my daughter in particular, getting hurt during a play that seems intentionally dirty, and it being chalked up to an accident or part of the sport. I guess the grey line is that girls get hit by pitches all the time, so by "sending a message" you are taking a measured risk that the result will just be a bruise and a sent message. The reality is however, this unwritten rule has withstood the test of time in baseball and has the potential of doing the same in softball. Only time will tell.

I think there is a big difference between "unwritten rules" in the major leagues vs in youth sports. The "adults" are supposed to teach the kids the right way and insure the written rules are being applied properly. These are kids. As also mentioned prior- too many times "intention" is as much perception as reality and the escalation of 'messages" goes unchecked and accomplishes nothing(as is the case in MLB many times.

So one unwritten rule in baseball for many years was that if someone hit a homerun, the next time they would be plunked. Would that be OK? Where do you draw the line. The problem with "unwritten rules" is that many times different people are working under different sets of "unwritten rules"

My basic premise is that these kind of "messages" have no place in youth sports. Kids do not come up with it on their own and when they are taught they do not have the proper judgment to apply "justice" in a proportional way. IMO it is teaching kids the wrong way to play the game and putting these children in unnecessary risk.

Would this be okay to teach in youth baseball? I feel like your answer would also be no, but in the same breathe you call teaching kids to retaliate "teaching kids the wrong way to play the game." Although isn't this in fact how the game is played as they get older?

My point isn't that it should be viewed as OK. Moreso that "OK" is in the eye of the beholder and if you want the needle to move in your direction you have offer alternative or improved solutions. By arguing with people you only put them on the defense and they no longer hear you or your message. It then becomes only about arguing for the sake of arguing. So what is the end game here, to improve youth sports or be the better arguer?

Not OK in youth baseball either and most use baseball leagues have strict rules against it


You ask my solution and the answer is quite simple:

Coaches need to coach. Starting first regarding plays at home. As mentioned previously many of the collisions at home are not due to any malicious intent, but do to a fear of sliding and that many players are not taught when to, how to and what slide to you. Also players need to be taught that a Pete Rose/Ray Fosse collision is no longer the thing to do(despite what they might of heard from their fathers or grandfathers about knocking the ball out). Coaches need to let the parents know too.

Coaches need to enforce good sportsmanship. The problem with a brushback or beaning(besides the potential injury) is that it might also lead to the pitcher and possibly the coach being ejected. Embarrassing in a travel game, but costly in a high school or college game . Several states have Hs rules which call for the suspension of 1-2 games after an ejection. College coaches are fined.

My daughter’s travel coach had an excellent player who tended to slide a little late, perhaps some incidental contact-an elbow here and there. He pulled her aside and said “knock it out, you’re better than that, you want to known for being the good player you are, not looked down at as a dirty player. That’s what coaches do


As far as the “upper levels”. In the four years my daughter played in college I never saw a brush back or intention beaning( nor in high school)

Umpires need to enforce the rules. At early age groups I like when they explain calls and no calls. Tends to calm down the often ignorant peanut gallery

[DirtyRiders]

Wow....Pull her from the game??? Agree to disagree...But what do I know I’m just a Neanderthal!!!

[Sue Trubovitz, Turbo]

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Collisions will always be part of the sport. If you collided with your own teammate after calling for the ball would you still want retaliation?

If the rules were you can't slide at all it would still happen. If the rules were you have to slide no matter what it would still happen. Now that we know this is going to continue happening what's the solution.

The main topic is protect the players. My approach to this is teach players how to correctly defend their positions in a manner which will keep them as safe as possible. There are mechanics that can keep you incredibly balanced and strong to be able to defend on coming runners.

From the examples in this discussion, we know people choose to handle things differently punishment wise or no punishment. There are parents who let their kids do anything and other parents who apply manners to the family while raising it. Can argue about it and discuss it but I think it's most important to recognize it exists. Probably will not change.

Rules have changed. When I played you had to make an attempt to get out of the way of the pitch. Now you don't have to move at all. Let the pitch hit you and you get first base. Who's ever argument here is to plug the next batter,...
Now most batters are told to stand there and get hit by the pitch, give it up for the team, and get to first base.
That in itself has inherent danger.
A 70 mile an hour pitch hitting a softball player is an over 90 mile an hour pitch in baseball. It weighs more and is larger. Want to talk about causing injuries.....who made that rule?

Playing in an era where we didn't wear helmets , played in shorts, and anytime defensively you had to slide to take out a double play you did. There were times, with a runner on 1st. we would bunt the runner would take off to second, we would slide into the first baseman so that they were unable to make the throw as the runner rounded second and went to Third. Yes that happened. Also the catcher could block the plate as long as the ball was flying towards the catcher you can get a really strong stance and let the runner know you were defending the plate. In fact always thought it's not just that you're going to try and score, you actually have to get through me the catcher to get to the plate. There were vicious attacks by players cleats, body slams and rolls. Now there are rules trying to protect players that are based on the opinion of the play. Where the ball is relative to the runner. Where the catcher is standing.

*These days by plugging the next batter you are not sending a message, you are sending a runner to first base.

[jonriv]

[quote]*These days by plugging the next batter you are not sending a message, you are sending a runner to first base[/quote

As well as risking an ejection or worse

[jonriv]

Wow....Pull her from the game??? Agree to disagree...But what do I know I’m just a Neanderthal!!!

Pull her if not ejected......

Better to learn early that later where the penalties are harsher. It is the responsibility of a coach to teach. This would certainly send a message that would be remembered.