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No deal breaker?

What's on your mind?

by xyzdude » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:19 pm

It would be silly to say that there could never be a deal breaker. My point of view is that parents seem to want to smooth out all of the edges for their daughters and break commitments for reasons that are more in the category of fairness than any real issue of safety or well being of the child. In this respect, I would consider this a snowflake approach to parenting and a participation trophy mentality. Not my idea of what sports can teach children. If you do it right, participation in sports can help your kids get a leg up on life. If you make it too easy, fight their battles for them, fight for them to always have a fair shot at everything --- they will not learn how to handle adversity and you may as well be prepared to go on job interviews with them, chaperone them on all of their dates, and have the college coach on speed dial. Your daughter will love that level of involvement I'm sure...

BTW, my parents probably thought that I was too easy on my kids! My parents were tough. I could be on any team or activity but I had to be able to get there on my own (walk, bike or bum a ride). When I was upset about not getting enough playing time on the local little league team when I was 10 years old, my Mom made me go talk to the coach - I was not allowed to call him and she certainly was not going to do it for me. It was probably the hardest thing I had to do up to that point in my life. She also made me practice with her and my dad taking turns being the coach (first experience in roll playing which has turned out to be a valuable skill in my life). I went to the coach - he was a mean SOB and even his own boys thought he was a jerk. I'm pretty sure that he told me that I should probably be looking for a sport other than baseball that I might someday be good at. I did not get any more playing time that year. My dad would have skinned me alive if I had quit the team because, "we are not quitters in this family". The point is that by the time I got to high school and suffered through a wrestling coach who really did not like me (and it was mutual), I was thick skinned and confident. I did not need his love or his support - I made the lineup because I put out all of the competition in my weight class and a few others just for sport! Most of them eventually recovered from their injuries. I learned how to be ruthless, how to lead others and how to fight through the pain. In truth, I learned more from playing sports than I ever did from any classes in school, including in college. It has served me well and in turn I made sure that my kids learned most of the same lessons and they are doing well for themselves too. That's is what it is all about!
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by Zoran » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:19 am

As you said it xyzdude
"it would be silly to say there could never be a deal breaker"
That is exactly why I posed the question to heybucket! Because there are posters who speak commitment is a commitment in absolutes without regard to further detail. Knowing they themselves have deal breakers!
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by Defty » Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:13 am

Zoran wrote:As you said it xyzdude
"it would be silly to say there could never be a deal breaker"
That is exactly why I posed the question to heybucket! Because there are posters who speak commitment is a commitment in absolutes without regard to further detail. Knowing they themselves have deal breakers!


I like the approach Zoran. I believe the biggest red flag when someone is offering "advice" on this site or in any other circumstance is when they speak in absolutes. There are so many variables and nuances to raising children and even more when you add sports, school, friends, etc. Every situation is dynamic.
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by Sam » Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:13 pm

My advice would be to leave if you wish, stay if you wish....but if you leave, do it for a good reason and learn from your experience. Coaches will tell you stories about "Nomads." These are people who have a history of leaving team after team. There seems to be coaches whom will always take them, but there are many coaches who won't take a kid with that reputation. So just don't make a habit of leaving teams. JMHO.
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by DirtyRiders » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:40 pm

Ultimately if you are making a decision that you feel is in the best interest of your daughter and your family then it can’t really be a bad call even if it is about playing time. With that said, the grass is rarely greener and you will probably run into a similar situation on another team. That’s why I do agree that leaving for lack of playing time is not recommended, but a component that is rarely discussed is a kid not getting playing time could lead to them not being happy. At what point is your daughters happiness or your ability to keep her from quitting the game altogether part of the decision making process?
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by centurian » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:54 am

The "nomads" could form a team of their own.
Can see the heybucket add read.
New team forming.
Wear your old uniform.
Practices on Saturday,
If you want to show up.
3 months of softball
From may thru july
Schedule.
3 Friendly's
3 tournaments
If we end up tolerating each other
will discuss entering a qualifier.
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by Defty » Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:58 am

centurian wrote:The "nomads" could form a team of their own.
Can see the heybucket add read.
New team forming.
Wear your old uniform.
Practices on Saturday,
If you want to show up.
3 months of softball
From may thru july
Schedule.
3 Friendly's
3 tournaments
If we end up tolerating each other
will discuss entering a qualifier.


Who would coach them. Is it:

1) COACH A who just left to start their own org (like we need more)
2) COACH B who just told everyone on the team that they have to try out again at the beginning of the regular season, or even right at the end of going dark, because they don't have the guts to cut a girl/family, even for a solid reason.
3) COACH C who just left org B for org C, after having just left org A two years ago because they "didn't see eye-to-eye" with the head of the org"
4) COACH D who just expanded from 1 team to 3-4 teams because they had "success" over the last few seasons and they see $$ signs that they can't pass up
5) COACH E who can't keep girls on his/her team because they have over promised and under delivered.
6) COACH F who just "moved down from 18u gold" because they "had so much success at that level that they wanted to coach at 10u/12u" not because their lack of success caused them to not be able to bring in/retain girls, but because they "want to give back."
7) COACH G who is also a high school coach, give lessons and has a full time job so you don't get even 1/4 of their time.

Point being, it is super easy to forward the narrative that "leaving a team makes you a bad person" but in the current travel landscape their isn't wide-spread opportunity to even stick with one team if you want to. Money has changed this game immensely. The negative effects of early verbals still reverberates throughout the sport even though it has been curbed (i.e. parents pressuring their kids to stand out and have it all together by 12u, coaches dragging teams to showcases when they no they have no place being their, etc). In my opinion the lack of a way to transfer down legacy knowledge to newbie coaches and parents is a major reason that all of these problems perpetuate, or even worsen, from year to year. Of course the overall "problem" can not be summarized in one sitting, but that's why I feel that always trying to point the blame finger in the direction of the parents or kids is a detriment towards working towards improving the system as a whole.
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by centurian » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:02 pm

Defty wrote:
centurian wrote:The "nomads" could form a team of their own.
Can see the heybucket add read.
New team forming.
Wear your old uniform.
Practices on Saturday,
If you want to show up.
3 months of softball
From may thru july
Schedule.
3 Friendly's
3 tournaments
If we end up tolerating each other
will discuss entering a qualifier.


Who would coach them. Is it:

1) COACH A who just left to start their own org (like we need more)
2) COACH B who just told everyone on the team that they have to try out again at the beginning of the regular season, or even right at the end of going dark, because they don't have the guts to cut a girl/family, even for a solid reason.
3) COACH C who just left org B for org C, after having just left org A two years ago because they "didn't see eye-to-eye" with the head of the org"
4) COACH D who just expanded from 1 team to 3-4 teams because they had "success" over the last few seasons and they see $$ signs that they can't pass up
5) COACH E who can't keep girls on his/her team because they have over promised and under delivered.
6) COACH F who just "moved down from 18u gold" because they "had so much success at that level that they wanted to coach at 10u/12u" not because their lack of success caused them to not be able to bring in/retain girls, but because they "want to give back."
7) COACH G who is also a high school coach, give lessons and has a full time job so you don't get even 1/4 of their time.

Point being, it is super easy to forward the narrative that "leaving a team makes you a bad person" but in the current travel landscape their isn't wide-spread opportunity to even stick with one team if you want to. Money has changed this game immensely. The negative effects of early verbals still reverberates throughout the sport even though it has been curbed (i.e. parents pressuring their kids to stand out and have it all together by 12u, coaches dragging teams to showcases when they no they have no place being their, etc). In my opinion the lack of a way to transfer down legacy knowledge to newbie coaches and parents is a major reason that all of these problems perpetuate, or even worsen, from year to year. Of course the overall "problem" can not be summarized in one sitting, but that's why I feel that always trying to point the blame finger in the direction of the parents or kids is a detriment towards working towards improving the system as a whole.


5)Coach E promises can't deliver.
3 month schedule promises won't matter team breaking up anyway when cant deliver. Just enough time to prove failure. No harm done. No expectations.
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by Sam » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:23 pm

Defty wrote:
centurian wrote:The "nomads" could form a team of their own.
Can see the heybucket add read.
New team forming.
Wear your old uniform.
Practices on Saturday,
If you want to show up.
3 months of softball
From may thru july
Schedule.
3 Friendly's
3 tournaments
If we end up tolerating each other
will discuss entering a qualifier.


Who would coach them. Is it:

1) COACH A who just left to start their own org (like we need more)
2) COACH B who just told everyone on the team that they have to try out again at the beginning of the regular season, or even right at the end of going dark, because they don't have the guts to cut a girl/family, even for a solid reason.
3) COACH C who just left org B for org C, after having just left org A two years ago because they "didn't see eye-to-eye" with the head of the org"
4) COACH D who just expanded from 1 team to 3-4 teams because they had "success" over the last few seasons and they see $$ signs that they can't pass up
5) COACH E who can't keep girls on his/her team because they have over promised and under delivered.
6) COACH F who just "moved down from 18u gold" because they "had so much success at that level that they wanted to coach at 10u/12u" not because their lack of success caused them to not be able to bring in/retain girls, but because they "want to give back."
7) COACH G who is also a high school coach, give lessons and has a full time job so you don't get even 1/4 of their time.

Point being, it is super easy to forward the narrative that "leaving a team makes you a bad person" but in the current travel landscape their isn't wide-spread opportunity to even stick with one team if you want to. Money has changed this game immensely. The negative effects of early verbals still reverberates throughout the sport even though it has been curbed (i.e. parents pressuring their kids to stand out and have it all together by 12u, coaches dragging teams to showcases when they no they have no place being their, etc). In my opinion the lack of a way to transfer down legacy knowledge to newbie coaches and parents is a major reason that all of these problems perpetuate, or even worsen, from year to year. Of course the overall "problem" can not be summarized in one sitting, but that's why I feel that always trying to point the blame finger in the direction of the parents or kids is a detriment towards working towards improving the system as a whole.


I garnered the vast majority of my SB knowledge from Dave Clark at the lower ages and Ronnie Smith at the upper levels. You learn a lot from coaching with these types of coaches as well as with coaching against coaches like Mark Campbell (RIP), Rick Hopkins, John Perez, Rick Robinson, et al. There was a virtual explosion of teams during the 2000's which led to a virtual plethora of coaches.....people that knew what they knew....that wasn't passed down. Some of them were successful because they were good recruiters.....many weren't.

I don't know what it's like today, so I take you at your word regarding the current state of coaching. I would only say that no coach exists without players and those players must have willing parents. Parents exist without coaches....which is why they carry the lion's share of the blame when things go wrong. Nothing wrong with leaving a team...do it early in the season....but don't leave one every year.....or twice every year....or...you get it.
Run your mouth when I'm not around
Its easy to achieve
You cry to weak friends that sympathize
- Pantera, Walk
User avatar
Sam
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Location: Norco, California

by Defty » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:13 pm

Sam wrote:
Defty wrote:
centurian wrote:The "nomads" could form a team of their own.
Can see the heybucket add read.
New team forming.
Wear your old uniform.
Practices on Saturday,
If you want to show up.
3 months of softball
From may thru july
Schedule.
3 Friendly's
3 tournaments
If we end up tolerating each other
will discuss entering a qualifier.


Who would coach them. Is it:

1) COACH A who just left to start their own org (like we need more)
2) COACH B who just told everyone on the team that they have to try out again at the beginning of the regular season, or even right at the end of going dark, because they don't have the guts to cut a girl/family, even for a solid reason.
3) COACH C who just left org B for org C, after having just left org A two years ago because they "didn't see eye-to-eye" with the head of the org"
4) COACH D who just expanded from 1 team to 3-4 teams because they had "success" over the last few seasons and they see $$ signs that they can't pass up
5) COACH E who can't keep girls on his/her team because they have over promised and under delivered.
6) COACH F who just "moved down from 18u gold" because they "had so much success at that level that they wanted to coach at 10u/12u" not because their lack of success caused them to not be able to bring in/retain girls, but because they "want to give back."
7) COACH G who is also a high school coach, give lessons and has a full time job so you don't get even 1/4 of their time.

Point being, it is super easy to forward the narrative that "leaving a team makes you a bad person" but in the current travel landscape their isn't wide-spread opportunity to even stick with one team if you want to. Money has changed this game immensely. The negative effects of early verbals still reverberates throughout the sport even though it has been curbed (i.e. parents pressuring their kids to stand out and have it all together by 12u, coaches dragging teams to showcases when they no they have no place being their, etc). In my opinion the lack of a way to transfer down legacy knowledge to newbie coaches and parents is a major reason that all of these problems perpetuate, or even worsen, from year to year. Of course the overall "problem" can not be summarized in one sitting, but that's why I feel that always trying to point the blame finger in the direction of the parents or kids is a detriment towards working towards improving the system as a whole.


I garnered the vast majority of my SB knowledge from Dave Clark at the lower ages and Ronnie Smith at the upper levels. You learn a lot from coaching with these types of coaches as well as with coaching against coaches like Mark Campbell (RIP), Rick Hopkins, John Perez, Rick Robinson, et al. There was a virtual explosion of teams during the 2000's which led to a virtual plethora of coaches.....people that knew what they knew....that wasn't passed down. Some of them were successful because they were good recruiters.....many weren't.

I don't know what it's like today, so I take you at your word regarding the current state of coaching. I would only say that no coach exists without players and those players must have willing parents. Parents exist without coaches....which is why they carry the lion's share of the blame when things go wrong. Nothing wrong with leaving a team...do it early in the season....but don't leave one every year.....or twice every year....or...you get it.


Totally agree with your last comments.

There are still respectable coaches out there, but there definitely isn't enough to go around in each age group. It would be awesome for some of the successful coaches from the past to get together with the org heads and influential coaches of today and give conferences to coaches, parents and players on a regular basis. Kind of a brain trust, but without egos getting in the way (god willing). If org heads and coaches would support this and get their families to this type of event we could start to see more people on the same page and less confused about all of the different messages. If we can aggregate many of the lessons learned and equip coaches and families with the knowledge they need to navigate the system early on we would definitely be doing right by each and every girl that plays the game. Rec leagues could really benefit from something like this because that is where it all begins (obviously). This would take someone with the means and influence to put together though. Otherwise its just pipe dreams.

... or any other variation of some way to get the info out to those who need it.
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