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No deal breaker?

What's on your mind?

by Defty » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:15 pm

centurian wrote:
Defty wrote:
centurian wrote:The "nomads" could form a team of their own.
Can see the heybucket add read.
New team forming.
Wear your old uniform.
Practices on Saturday,
If you want to show up.
3 months of softball
From may thru july
Schedule.
3 Friendly's
3 tournaments
If we end up tolerating each other
will discuss entering a qualifier.


Who would coach them. Is it:

1) COACH A who just left to start their own org (like we need more)
2) COACH B who just told everyone on the team that they have to try out again at the beginning of the regular season, or even right at the end of going dark, because they don't have the guts to cut a girl/family, even for a solid reason.
3) COACH C who just left org B for org C, after having just left org A two years ago because they "didn't see eye-to-eye" with the head of the org"
4) COACH D who just expanded from 1 team to 3-4 teams because they had "success" over the last few seasons and they see $$ signs that they can't pass up
5) COACH E who can't keep girls on his/her team because they have over promised and under delivered.
6) COACH F who just "moved down from 18u gold" because they "had so much success at that level that they wanted to coach at 10u/12u" not because their lack of success caused them to not be able to bring in/retain girls, but because they "want to give back."
7) COACH G who is also a high school coach, give lessons and has a full time job so you don't get even 1/4 of their time.

Point being, it is super easy to forward the narrative that "leaving a team makes you a bad person" but in the current travel landscape their isn't wide-spread opportunity to even stick with one team if you want to. Money has changed this game immensely. The negative effects of early verbals still reverberates throughout the sport even though it has been curbed (i.e. parents pressuring their kids to stand out and have it all together by 12u, coaches dragging teams to showcases when they no they have no place being their, etc). In my opinion the lack of a way to transfer down legacy knowledge to newbie coaches and parents is a major reason that all of these problems perpetuate, or even worsen, from year to year. Of course the overall "problem" can not be summarized in one sitting, but that's why I feel that always trying to point the blame finger in the direction of the parents or kids is a detriment towards working towards improving the system as a whole.


5)Coach E promises can't deliver.
3 month schedule promises won't matter team breaking up anyway when cant deliver. Just enough time to prove failure. No harm done. No expectations.


I can't argue with the logic. :lol:
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by Battle » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:56 pm

Sam wrote:I garnered the vast majority of my SB knowledge from Dave Clark at the lower ages and Ronnie Smith at the upper levels. You learn a lot from coaching with these types of coaches as well as with coaching against coaches like Mark Campbell (RIP), Rick Hopkins, John Perez, Rick Robinson, et al. There was a virtual explosion of teams during the 2000's which led to a virtual plethora of coaches.....people that knew what they knew....that wasn't passed down. Some of them were successful because they were good recruiters.....many weren't.

I don't know what it's like today, so I take you at your word regarding the current state of coaching. I would only say that no coach exists without players and those players must have willing parents. Parents exist without coaches....which is why they carry the lion's share of the blame when things go wrong. Nothing wrong with leaving a team...do it early in the season....but don't leave one every year.....or twice every year....or...you get it.

I don't think coaches have changed that much. You still have the good, the bad, and the ugly. What has changed is the worsening of the mamma/daddy goggles. Back in the 2000 you actually had to go find them to buy 'em. Now you just order online and they are delivered right to your door.
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by xyzdude » Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:44 am

Point being, it is super easy to forward the narrative that "leaving a team makes you a bad person" but in the current travel landscape their isn't wide-spread opportunity to even stick with one team if you want to. Money has changed this game immensely. The negative effects of early verbals still reverberates throughout the sport even though it has been curbed (i.e. parents pressuring their kids to stand out and have it all together by 12u, coaches dragging teams to showcases when they no they have no place being their, etc). In my opinion the lack of a way to transfer down legacy knowledge to newbie coaches and parents is a major reason that all of these problems perpetuate, or even worsen, from year to year. Of course the overall "problem" can not be summarized in one sitting, but that's why I feel that always trying to point the blame finger in the direction of the parents or kids is a detriment towards working towards improving the system as a whole.


There are still respectable coaches out there, but there definitely isn't enough to go around in each age group. It would be awesome for some of the successful coaches from the past to get together with the org heads and influential coaches of today and give conferences to coaches, parents and players on a regular basis. Kind of a brain trust, but without egos getting in the way (god willing). If org heads and coaches would support this and get their families to this type of event we could start to see more people on the same page and less confused about all of the different messages. If we can aggregate many of the lessons learned and equip coaches and families with the knowledge they need to navigate the system early on we would definitely be doing right by each and every girl that plays the game. Rec leagues could really benefit from something like this because that is where it all begins (obviously). This would take someone with the means and influence to put together though. Otherwise its just pipe dreams.


While you rant and rant some more about how bad the coaches are, you deflect any blame by parents. There are plenty of great coaches out there and tons of good ones. It is the parent's job to find them. If you are a bad picker, that is probably on you. It seems that you are in the category of parent who really just wants to hear what you want to hear and anyone who tells you something different is wrong. It is interesting to have you be critical of posters calling them old and out of touch and then make a call for those same folks to share their knowledge for your benefit. Most good coaches already have a system of learning from their peers and former coaches in place and use it all the time.

Lastly, learn the difference between there, they're and their - it won't make your logic any better but it will at least make you seem somewhat intelligent and literate. Have a nice day...
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by Zoran » Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:20 am

.[/quote]BATTLE
I don't think coaches have changed that much. You still have the good, the bad, and the ugly. What has changed is the worsening of the mamma/daddy goggles. Back in the 2000 you actually had to go find them to buy 'em. Now you just order online and they are delivered right to your door.[/quote]

"What has changed is the worsening of the mama daddy goggles"

Recognize these are the mama's & daddy's who are coaching most of the 14u and younger age teams. While some tend to stop coaching as their daughters go into showcasing age levels. There are still few of these parents trickling forward trying to do showcasing with no real understanding that a more seasoned coach would already have established understanding. Beyond coaching their own kid and have stayed with the sport.

Putting coach in front of a parent name does not make them officially a well-trained coach that knows what they're doing. Just turns into mama & daddy goggles with coaching bifocals.

Reading through heybucket tends to show there are some posters that seem to defend their individual person who they perceive them selves to be. Rather than look at the whole picture.
Sam at least noted he may not be as in tune with today's times.
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by Defty » Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:30 am

Battle wrote:
Sam wrote:I garnered the vast majority of my SB knowledge from Dave Clark at the lower ages and Ronnie Smith at the upper levels. You learn a lot from coaching with these types of coaches as well as with coaching against coaches like Mark Campbell (RIP), Rick Hopkins, John Perez, Rick Robinson, et al. There was a virtual explosion of teams during the 2000's which led to a virtual plethora of coaches.....people that knew what they knew....that wasn't passed down. Some of them were successful because they were good recruiters.....many weren't.

I don't know what it's like today, so I take you at your word regarding the current state of coaching. I would only say that no coach exists without players and those players must have willing parents. Parents exist without coaches....which is why they carry the lion's share of the blame when things go wrong. Nothing wrong with leaving a team...do it early in the season....but don't leave one every year.....or twice every year....or...you get it.

I don't think coaches have changed that much. You still have the good, the bad, and the ugly. What has changed is the worsening of the mamma/daddy goggles. Back in the 2000 you actually had to go find them to buy 'em. Now you just order online and they are delivered right to your door.


Travel has, at the very least, doubled in size over the past 4 years. There was a mass exodus from rec as parents sought to get their kids early verbals. Where did all of the capable coaches come from. How can something double+ in size in such a short period of time and still have the resources to go around. I get that you believe what you are saying, but I don't get the sense that there is any foundation behind it.
Last edited by Defty on Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by Defty » Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:42 am

xyzdude wrote:
Point being, it is super easy to forward the narrative that "leaving a team makes you a bad person" but in the current travel landscape their isn't wide-spread opportunity to even stick with one team if you want to. Money has changed this game immensely. The negative effects of early verbals still reverberates throughout the sport even though it has been curbed (i.e. parents pressuring their kids to stand out and have it all together by 12u, coaches dragging teams to showcases when they no they have no place being their, etc). In my opinion the lack of a way to transfer down legacy knowledge to newbie coaches and parents is a major reason that all of these problems perpetuate, or even worsen, from year to year. Of course the overall "problem" can not be summarized in one sitting, but that's why I feel that always trying to point the blame finger in the direction of the parents or kids is a detriment towards working towards improving the system as a whole.


There are still respectable coaches out there, but there definitely isn't enough to go around in each age group. It would be awesome for some of the successful coaches from the past to get together with the org heads and influential coaches of today and give conferences to coaches, parents and players on a regular basis. Kind of a brain trust, but without egos getting in the way (god willing). If org heads and coaches would support this and get their families to this type of event we could start to see more people on the same page and less confused about all of the different messages. If we can aggregate many of the lessons learned and equip coaches and families with the knowledge they need to navigate the system early on we would definitely be doing right by each and every girl that plays the game. Rec leagues could really benefit from something like this because that is where it all begins (obviously). This would take someone with the means and influence to put together though. Otherwise its just pipe dreams.


While you rant and rant some more about how bad the coaches are, you deflect any blame by parents. There are plenty of great coaches out there and tons of good ones. It is the parent's job to find them. If you are a bad picker, that is probably on you. It seems that you are in the category of parent who really just wants to hear what you want to hear and anyone who tells you something different is wrong. It is interesting to have you be critical of posters calling them old and out of touch and then make a call for those same folks to share their knowledge for your benefit. Most good coaches already have a system of learning from their peers and former coaches in place and use it all the time.

Lastly, learn the difference between there, they're and their - it won't make your logic any better but it will at least make you seem somewhat intelligent and literate. Have a nice day...


I hate myself for responding to you because it is painfully obvious that logic is your enemy, but here goes nothing:

1) I am suggesting that the successful, well-respected coaches and influencers of the past and present come forward. And regardless of success or respect, I am suggesting that org heads and head coaches get behind a plan that EVERYONE can stand to learn something from. Coaches from the past who have been there but not done that need not apply.

2) I am familiar with grammar. Since this isn't a term paper I don't worry as much as you clearly do. But it is a real treat to watch you dip into the lowest depths of internet trolls with the weakest arguments, and attempt to don the hat of Grammar Police.

3) What you have done is criticize something without offering something in its place. You are just a detractor with too much time on your hands and not a large enough brain to see that words on a screen are more important to you than impacting the world around you.
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by Schmick » Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:18 pm

If the team isnt going anywhere I will pull my kid after the Christmas party amd start over again in January.
If theyre not improving, wont be going to PGF and IDT, didnt at least make semis in one or more of the fall tournaments.... I'll start making phone calls and look for a better squad. It sucked, always being the new family with the new kid on the team but only going to the TCS world series at the end of the year would suck worse
Now that shes in High School I may not do that anymore though.
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by Sam » Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:12 pm

I find it fascinating that no parent responding here to the deal breakers brought up actually talking to their DD to see what she, the actual player, wanted to do.....a lot of responses having to do with the competitiveness of the team. So does your DD's opinion matter? Would you rather her play on an elite PGF Top Ten team even though she could, in no way, compete for playing time?

Personally, I wanted my kid to play and have fun. After 10U she couldn't play on elite teams (maybe as P3) and we went to TCS once. Went to ASA Western Nationals twice. Other than that, I encouraged kids to become pickup players on teams that had qualified for ASA Nationals, knowing I would likely lose them if they went.....but it was good to know that they could compete and help those teams. I digress.

It seems that parents that insist that their kid plays on PGF highly competitive teams may pain themselves as "Water Cooler Braggarts," talking at the field or the office about the team's accomplishments and ignoring the fact that their kid plays one game of a three game friendly and sees the field 2 innings in tournament pool play. Just an observation.
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by Zoran » Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:59 pm

Schmick wrote:If the team isnt going anywhere I will pull my kid after the Christmas party amd start over again in January.
If theyre not improving, wont be going to PGF and IDT, didnt at least make semis in one or more of the fall tournaments.... I'll start making phone calls and look for a better squad. It sucked, always being the new family with the new kid on the team but only going to the TCS world series at the end of the year would suck worse
Now that shes in High School I may not do that anymore though.


This appears to be goal oriented.

While this-

Sam wrote:I find it fascinating that no parent responding here to the deal breakers brought up actually talking to their DD to see what she, the actual player, wanted to do.....a lot of responses having to do with the competitiveness of the team. So does your DD's opinion matter? Would you rather her play on an elite PGF Top Ten team even though she could, in no way, compete for playing time?

Personally, I wanted my kid to play and have fun. After 10U she couldn't play on elite teams (maybe as P3) and we went to TCS once. Went to ASA Western Nationals twice. Other than that, I encouraged kids to become pickup players on teams that had qualified for ASA Nationals, knowing I would likely lose them if they went.....but it was good to know that they could compete and help those teams.


-This is playing, but doesnt seem
growth oriented to a higher goal.
How long or to what age do you keep paying for something that once in high school is the equivalent level?



About the comment of people not mentioning what their kids like. There's plenty of feedback on the parental side of the discussion in other postings. That question being, Do you put your kid in a place where they are settling in with everything average. Or do you put them in a place where they have to earn their place?

Those questions may be the
root of what makes a deal breaker.
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by Sam » Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:26 pm

-This is playing, but doesnt seem
growth oriented to a higher goal.
How long or to what age do you keep paying for something that once in high school is the equivalent level?



About the comment of people not mentioning what their kids like. There's plenty of feedback on the parental side of the discussion in other postings. That question being, Do you put your kid in a place where they are settling in with everything average. Or do you put them in a place where they have to earn their place?

Those questions may be the
root of what makes a deal breaker.


So....this is exactly what I was talking about. Whose goal? Your DD's goal? or your goal?

Average teams play elite teams all the time.....elite teams NEVER have to face their own pitchers. It's a fallacy that kids from average teams can't compete or are less likely to succeed in playing in college. I had kids in the Big Ten, Pac12, Big 8, etc. Not bragging.....only making a point that actually playing a lot is important.
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