BBhitting vs FP hitting

[FPdawg]

The first thing I would like to say, many thanks to all the good folks that give their time, and soul to pass on good constructive coaching philosophy, and techniques and I think they are all correct. So, to not try and debate BB or FP, I will just give a few things that have worked for me, in my coaching, and playing career, if it doesn't look like the real deal, then slap my face, and I'LL set down, and shut up. IMO, to start with I would not tell a player working on FP hitting that BB & FP hitting are basically same mechanics, that would be same as saying, driving NASCAR & Indy cars, same thing, right? They both go real fast and round and round, therefore, same mechanics. You make the call. Ok, hers some thoughts, its generally known the one thing agreed by all in sports science, that required the highest level of athletic skills, was the ability for a human with a bat in the hands to strike a baseball coming at their body in excess of 90 mph. Now we all agree that its well documented for at least the last 20 years various women's FP stars have been blowing softballs, an object almost 3 times the size of the pea they are used to ripping the skin off, and its always, the top hitters in MLB, and the girls make them tighten their ass's up and giggle at each other like a gaggle of 3'rd graders, because they just got their jocks smoked on national TV. Now let’s debrief this phenomenon, if the theory holds any salt, the best hitters in the world in MLB baseball superstars even if the mechanics are just let’s say close, kinda close even just like say swatin a fly, like linear hitting and then rotational hitting, keep bottom of lead hand directed straight at target (the pesky fly) push straight through and then reverse torque at the rotational axis and squish fly. There was a good post yesterday about generic conditioning programs, same point on hitting you can call it anything you want rotational, linear and sometime anything works, BUT WY CANT THE BEST HITTERS IN MLB HIT A WELL PITCHED SOFTBALL, IF THE MECHANICS ARE THE SAME THE BALL CROSSES THE ZONE ON THE SAME TRUJECTORY AND ON THE SAME PLANE AND LETS DONT FORGET BALL ROTATION I JUST CANT PULL IN THE MEMORY OF THOSE GOOD OLD RISE BALLS THEY BEEN CHUCKIN IN MLB, AND WE HAVE GOT TO DISSCUSE THOSE GOOD RATTLE SNAKE READY,LEFTY SLAPERS IN BASEBALL. Ok I'm sorry I know I must have went asleep at the wheel 400 characters back, this is the thing, I'm a hitting & pitching coach and in the hitting area the items in CAPS are what I teach, and don't agree , (except the part about the girls smokin them at the plate) that any of the statement are true. Sorry BB coaches, but my hats off because without these great baseball coaches these girls would not be ready for the natural step up in performance level to fast pitch and IMHO that’s as close as to running in the same stream as it gets, thanks to all you good softball junkies. FPdawg

[mozzy]

I've read more than my share of people pontificating on the baseball/softball hitting school of thought. I've always liked the 'Keep It Simple, Stupid', or KISS principle, and for me that meant visually comparing video footage of the 2 on the siggy site.http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/oly ... 71.zebra_s
In the time I've spent studying all those clips--which I had been able to do much more happily than trying to decipher the mumbo-jumbo spouting from Joe B, Tom G. and their ilk, I feel that the clips show collegiate fastpitch sluggers swinging like Ortiz and Bonds.
In the interest of keeping this simple, I think that the amusing exhibitions of female fastpitch aces smoking MLB hitters comes down to the boys being unaccustomed to the ball path and the timing. If you gave them 10 minutes in the cage with some softballs, I bet that they wouldn't look quite as silly with Lisa, Jennie, and the gang.
And, I do believe, that when it comes to hitting for power, the bb and sb swings are similar.The video doesn't lie. And Ichiro is a heckuva slapper

[FPdawg]

Ok, this is how we learn. I was excited to see you bring up Ichiro, find post I'm not shure if ET or on here, but a video trying to compare Mantel to Ichiro, ok softball folks, take a close look where the feet are set in the box, in relation to the plate. China and Japan are very interested with FP softball and I think Ichiro was watching... look where his feet are, back foot even with rear of plate, this is not a standard BB position, this is standard fastpitch box position, up front before the ball can get into it’s tight radious, hook portion of the breaking ball I know a few scrapers like dykstra would get up there, but not for power, more to increase their OB%, just like Candrea does at U of A, think it over guy's, now the swing yes the only time the swings are identicle are in the home run swing only. And even then we are comparing only a few mille seconds, I will swear on my mother’s grave the load start process is way different in comparison to the visual reflex of the pitch, you have pitches that get to the zone in less reaction time in FP and your load and release are way different than a MLB hitter say with that big lead high foot lift to trigger their timing, wow put me in coach, I would love to chuck some fast pitch to that BB batting, very popular MLB technique FP & BB are two different animals under the same blanket, but if anyone thinks I might now something then just put up a situation and I'LL be glad to at least give an opinion, take it for what you want..I can see that there are some good coaches in here, lets get some good facts out there for the softball players, if you can do it then tell us how you did it and we will see if it works or is it just

[Cannonball]

I'll post more thoughts on this when I find some time. We've just returned from a funeral and family get together and so, I'm tired and going to bed. However, and as I tell my classes, "I know what I know but I know what I know. Some people know what they know but they don't know what they know, you know. I know what I know but I know what I know." I teach rotational hitting, have done so since I first started coaching years ago, have had a lot of success and have had more than my fair share of kids in baseball, not only go to college, but also play professionally including MLB. My DD has been taught the same. For a young one last year at 13 and now at 14 and playing up, she can flat get after it. Her team also hits in this fashion and last year won one of the ASA Regional Titles. Hitting, IMO, is about what you know, can you coach that, do the kids buy into it and then, having quality practices to reinforce it. Yes, I have my belief system within the rotational world. I don't care to push it off on you. However, with all due respect, and I know some of you have been at this a lot longer than I have, I think my DDs swing will hold up with any theory out there. Of course, I'm her Dad and somewhat biased! LOL!

Take care and give a loved one a hug before you turn in for the night!

[GoyardGirl]

From what I see in the real world. Are there any proven methods in hitting or pitching? Sure. Probably about as many proven ways as there are different fish. But I will agree that there are some constants to proven hitters. Through the years of hitting there have been many developments in both baseball and softball. There will continue to be more with time. And when the next great hitter in either sport consistenly does better than their peers that will be the next koolaid! I believe you have to teach a system and then adapt to the players abilities and strengths. Because the last I checked, each one of these girls are different. There are some constant components to the swing. Stance. Trigger. Release. Follow Through. They are the same in both games. Its still hitting a round object in flight with a round surface extended away from the body. Point of contact with authority still is the objective. My contention is that a well balanced hitter, swinging flat through the hitting zone with speed produces results more consistantly. Its pretty much the same in both sports.

[jofus]

FP, I'm a very newly converted "rotational" believer for FP, but I would like to make a couple points.

One, Ichiro does not swing like the average MLB batter. The story is that he "can" and does swing rotational occasionally in workouts, but in games he is definitely a linear hitter. With his speed, all he is trying to do is make contact, preferable to the left side of the field, and boogey down the line, almost like a slapper in softball.

Now, on a personal note, my DD is 12, soon to be 13, and pretty good size, a little over 5'6", about 110 lbs, and pretty strong for her age. She fell in love with softball 3 seasons ago (after playing coed T-Ball and Pony League (machine pitch), it all clicked when she went to all girl teams) and I started really working on her hitting.

I started her out the way I was coached almost 30 years ago....hands to the ball, squish the bug, etc....basically, I know now, linear mechanics. And, she did pretty well in Little League, even all stars. She never cleared the (200') fence, but she came very close several times, both in practice and games, and even all stars against "better" 10U and then 12U pitching. Our local little league had a home run derby last summer for a fund raiser, and she got 2nd in her age group (boys and girls), hitting 4 baseballs out of 20 over the fence, never mind that she hadn't hit a baseball in almost 4 years.

But, she was also playing travel ball, and playing up to 14U. She still did fine against most pitchers, but against the few really fast ones, she had a real hard time catching up to the pitch. I knew that her swing was kinda "long", but I didn't know how to fix it. Then I changed jobs, and one of my new co-workers was a guy who had worked with the local high school for years, and been to several swing clinics, etc. He saw a picture of her pitching, couldn't believe that she was only 12, and asked me if I would let him look at her swing one evening.

Well, the way he teaches swinging is a little "hybrid", I've figured out since I've been trying to educate myself a little (mainly he still teaches a slight "down-swing"), but mainly he works on them using their body to swing the bat, rather than the arms like in a more linear style. I could tell that it made her swing quicker, and it was proved to me when in her tournament that weekend, she was out in front of a lot of pitches....she was starting her swing at the point where she had previously, but getting the bat to the zone much quicker. She faced the fastest pitcher we saw last year (this girl had to be pitching in the upper 50's, close to 60, which is pretty fast for a 14U around here), and the first time up she hit the ball solid on her....and pulled it foul.

I knew right then that I had to continue to work on what my co-worker started, because I could obviously see the difference in her bat speed. I figure the quicker your swing is, therefore the longer you can wait to make that decision to offer at the pitch or not, the better off you are. Plus, it just makes sense that a swing coming from your legs and torso has more power than a mostly-arm swing.

So, I've been trolling every web site that I could find, ordered a couple books on rotational hitting, etc. I know it's not gonna happen overnight, but I'm confident it's the right approach. Plus, my 9 year old boy needs all the power he can get, he's tiny, unlike his big sister.

As to the path of the ball, release point, etc, yes, there are differences...but, the ball is still on a downward path when it crosses the plate. Not exactly the same path as a baseball released from overhand (and from a mound), but similar. Even a rise ball isn't "rising" as it passes the batter, it just isn't dropping as much. Plus, they're usually high in the zone anyway, and a rotational hitter should have a flat (or almost) flat swing in that area anyway.


Shew, sorry so long But, you said you were wanting disussion

(I even had to type that on my laptop, which I hate doing )

[dallasfungo]

An emotional topic, to be sure. Without diving into detail, I'd refer you to Don Slaught's research at http://www.rightviewpro.com. Years of slow motion video analysis demonstrate that the softball swing has both linear and rotational elements and there is no difference between a baseball swing and a softball swing. And why should there be? Male and female athletes hit the ball with similar mechanics in golf, tennis, racquetball, lacrosse, field hockey, etc. The physics of swinging a softball or baseball bat do not change because of gender. The only differences between the swing of a female athlete and male athlete are mass and energy.

[FPdawg]

First, jofus I like what I see if thats your DD on your post, she still has contact with pitching plate, at the point in her windmill shown, I know, she will explode forward and slide foot forward, but not as early as most crow hoppers, loosing their conetic energy.. Next, pitchers should be able to throw (at al levels past 16u) 2 rise balls, one at kne's, short hop, one at armpits, not in SZ then the most efective defensive pitch in SB the drop and if you like the screw then do it with the drop, and then off speed pitch, wich can be drop or basic change, all these other pitches are hocus pocus stuff, some of the list's of some of the pitches I've seen from every DD'S dad is crazy, you cant come up with enough situations to have 6 pitches in your bag. Some of these moms and dads are getting out of hand. I absolutly say that only baseball coaches say that a rise ball, has never been filmed crosing the strike zone in a rising trajectory...Bull, ask a softball ump or catcher this question, and they will tell you thats B...S... baseball coaches trying to get in on the huge softball market, but dom't know softball. Find someone thats played FP softball and see what they say, I'm a 30 year softball coach and player, check it out if you think I'M full of it, ask a softball player... FP dawg

[ssarge]

Bull, ask a softball ump or catcher this question, and they will tell you thats B...S... baseball coaches trying to get in on the huge softball market, but dom't know softball. Find someone thats played FP softball and see what they say, I'm a 30 year softball coach and player, check it out if you think I'M full of it, ask a softball player... FP dawg

Save the effort. They'll say it goes up.

See the Sarah Pauly videos. The CAMERA behind the plate said the pitch went up. It "fooled" the camera!

And a profile angle video of THE SAME PITCHES showed that they clearly didn't. Only one POSSIBLE explanation - there is an illusion effect when it comes at you. Simply doesn't drop as much as the brain expects. Since the brain "sees" most pitches - which drop rather significantly - as "level," this tricks the brain, and makes it seem as if it is going up.

You CAN NOT argue persuasively against profile angle video. Irrefutable.

See also the Bata Pitching Machine Study (the Bata site), which indicates that they were unable to get adequate spin to attain a riseball using their machine.

See the ESPN "Pitch Track" footage of Finch's riseball from Summer, 2006. THAT technology is accurate to 1/8 inch.




Serious question:

Are you a shill for this site, trying to drum up posts and dialog? OK, I guess, and obviously, I've "bitten." But you seem to absolutely refuse to look at the video evidence that has been highlighted for you, and simply cling to your antecedent bias. Frustrating.

[jofus]

FPDawg, yes, that's my daughter, last year in little league 12U all stars. She had been taking lessons for about 6 months at that time, and pretty much just threw fast ball and changeup (which is usually enough in little league). Her stride foot lands around 6 to 6.5 feet from the rubber, and she normally doesn't crow hop, although, as often as I see it actually called around here, you almost think you should teach them to do it for an advantage

She played up to 14U (as a softball 11 year old) last year, and didn't get to pitch any on that team, and I didn't expect her to, we had a few decent 14 year olds pitching. Her little league coach only pitched her in a couple games all year, because she was "too scary for the younger girls"

Then she pitched the one game that pic is from in all stars, a 9-0 shutout, and one inning in the state semifinal game (scoreless inning iirc), and that was it for the year. A lot of practice for less than 20 innings