Whats the call here?

[DonnieS]

I have a runner at 2nd, she takes 3rd on a sac bunt, rounds 3rd to make an attempt at home, F5 is standing in the base line - between 3rd and home, about 5 feet down the line, my runner runs into her. HP blue's arm goes out - obstruction ! - my runner, stops - I tell her 'go home - go home , you have obstruction' - she turns trots back toward 3rd, confused, she turns back to head home. I tell her 'go home - you get the next base because of the obstruction'. HP then yells 'Runner is out ' by virtue of LBR. Pitcher was in the cirlcle with the ball by then. My argument was that she gets to advance, ball is dead, etc. This all happened very quickly - but she definitely did hesitate, before turning to head home.

???

[Sam]

Hi Donnie,

She is out on LBR if the umpire believes that 3B was the base she would have achieved if the OBS hadn't taken place....OBS is a delayed dead ball...so the ball was alive when your runner is jockeying back and forth...she is entitled only to the base she would have achieved if the OBS had not happened....if the umpire thought that she would have scored if the OBS hadn't happened....she scores....because she is in danger of being put out prior to the base she would have attained.

Note: I'm sure I will be summarily corrected by an umpire on the board.

[DonnieS]

She was on her way home from 3rd when she bumped into F5 - he called obstruction at that point - which means she can go home without risk. Her mistake was hesitating and heading back to 3rd, as I think was explained to me, which is what you are saying, correct?.

[Sam]

She was on her way home from 3rd when she bumped into F5 - he called obstruction at that point - which means she can go home without risk. Her mistake was hesitating and heading back to 3rd, as I think was explained to me, which is what you are saying, correct?.

Rule of thumb is that you coach as if the OBS didn't happen....meaning that you send her home if you think she can make it despite being obstructed. The umpire needs to tell you, after the ball is dead, where she would have made it. Sounds like he/she thought the runner would not have scored.

[tps97]

I dont believe that there is an "automatice advancement". Rules state - awarded base(s) she would have obtained had obs not occurred. If she still would have been out, dont send her just because umpire has arm out.

[DonnieS]

>> Sounds like he/she thought the runner would not have scored. <<

Except that he said she was out because of LBR. We had some excellent work from the blues at this tournament, this particular guy changed calls on another play, said a slapper was out because she stepped out of the box on contact, then told my other coach that she stepped on the plate, the base blue, said he was looking straight at the play and there no problem. The home plate blue had a moving bb size strike zone - my catcher talked to me about it - the other coach told the blue - he wasnt worth the bucks and should leave. I told my kid, the pitcher, to stay focused, since not getting corners meant she was going to get some shots right back at her, which she did - in that game, which was against a group of college players - had 4 shot right back at her. Most tournaments, and against very good gold teams, she may get one shot a tournament. After the game, the blue followed me around explaining why he had a hard time calling strikes, he said the field was out of proportion, home plate was not lined up properly, the pitching rubber was in the wrong place, which seemed to affect only him. I did not argue strike zones, to me, being dad of the pitcher, she has to figure out what the blue expects and deal with it. I didnt respond to the guy, one of my parents was already watching from long distance.

Other blues in this tournament were very professional, asked for help when it was called for, had no attitudes, etc. ,maintained good control of situations, great sense of humor, people who add to the game, really the normal good working blues that we are used to seeing up in that area.

[MTR]

I have a runner at 2nd, she takes 3rd on a sac bunt, rounds 3rd to make an attempt at home, F5 is standing in the base line - between 3rd and home, about 5 feet down the line, my runner runs into her. HP blue's arm goes out - obstruction ! - my runner, stops - I tell her 'go home - go home , you have obstruction' - she turns trots back toward 3rd, confused, she turns back to head home. I tell her 'go home - you get the next base because of the obstruction'. HP then yells 'Runner is out ' by virtue of LBR. Pitcher was in the cirlcle with the ball by then. My argument was that she gets to advance, ball is dead, etc. This all happened very quickly - but she definitely did hesitate, before turning to head home.

???

To start, the runner does NOT have a right to score. OBS simply means the runner is protected to the base which, in the umpire's judgment, the runner would have reached safely had the OBS not occurred. Also, with a few limited exceptions, an obstructed runner cannot be put out between the two bases where the OBS occured.

Obviously, the plate umpire believe 3B was where the runner belonged, but enforced the LBR instead. Below is from ASA's web site in response to a question posed by an umpire after a discussion on an umpire's board.


Look Back Rule and Obstruction


We have received a play that involved obstruction and the look back rule in the same play. In this play a runner was obstructed between two bases and then violated the look back rule.

Play: With one out and R1 on 2B, B3 hits the ball to shallow left field for a base hit. R1 runs toward 3B but gets obstructed by F6. R1 stumbles and falls to the ground as F7 throws the ball back to F1 in the eight foot circle. R1 now gets up starts toward 3B but sees the pitcher with the ball in the circle. R1 then starts back to 2B and now sees B3 standing on 2B and changes directions again and starts back toward 3B. The umpire calls dead for R1 violating Rule 8 section 7T The Look Back Rule.

Ruling: The base umpire should have called "obstruction" and signaled a delayed dead ball when R1 was impeded by F6. When R1 violated the Look Back Rule, the umpire should call a "dead ball" and awarded R1 the base(s) that in the umpire's judgment, R1 would have reached, had there been no obstruction. Rule 8, Section 5B[1] on page 79 has five exceptions which allow the runner to be called out between the base they were obstructed. The Look Back Rule is NOT one of these exceptions.

[wadeintothem]

I have a runner at 2nd, she takes 3rd on a sac bunt, rounds 3rd to make an attempt at home, F5 is standing in the base line - between 3rd and home, about 5 feet down the line, my runner runs into her. HP blue's arm goes out - obstruction ! - my runner, stops - I tell her 'go home - go home , you have obstruction' - she turns trots back toward 3rd, confused, she turns back to head home. I tell her 'go home - you get the next base because of the obstruction'. HP then yells 'Runner is out ' by virtue of LBR. Pitcher was in the cirlcle with the ball by then. My argument was that she gets to advance, ball is dead, etc. This all happened very quickly - but she definitely did hesitate, before turning to head home.

???

As was foretold from the heavens....
Mars aligned with venus and neither the coach nor the umpire knew the rule or what to do.

Unfortunate when that happens.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LBR is obviously not an exception to OBS (which are very clearly spelled out).. so I'll throw this out there..

This is a good scenario to teach the important aspect of the non INT/Appeal exception to this rule..


R1 @ 1B

Hit and run Grounder to center, R1 legally advances to 3B

BR is obstructed by F3 rounding 1B, BR holds there off the bag
(in A-BR could have made 2B or B- BR would not have made 2B),

ball is thrown to F6 covering 2B who now fakes a throw to 1B. BR dives back to 1B.

F6 then throws to F5 attempting to retire R1, who dives back into the 3B bag safe. BR now takes off for 2B, F5 throws to F6 and retires the BR at 2B.

Whats the call for A and B?

[DonnieS]

>> Mars aligned with venus and neither the coach nor the umpire knew the rule or what to do.<<

Actually I did know the rule though I hadn't read the piece that Mike pasted here. I was sure that the obstruction meant that my runner could advance to home - at very least was safe back to 3rd. F5 obstructed my runner's path to home, not back to 3rd, which is why she should have kept going - instead she stopped after the contact and headed back to 3rd. During the confusion at that point - the ball was thrown to the pitcher, and my runner did her back and forth movement. The point from Mike's post was that LBR is not an exception to the obstruction call.

When I heard what the blue said, I called time and asked the blue to tell me what the call was. As soon as he told me, I asked for the TD and to appeat the call to the UIC. The UIC was at another field and the TD did the best he could - his job is to back the blue - I understand that and I didnt begrudge him that. It was a close game against a very good team and once I saw where things were headed, I just said, lets play ball. It was a timed game and I wanted my girls to play ball.

[wadeintothem]

You know I had an obstruction call a few weeks ago, deep hit, where BR rounded 1B, the coach was sending her, but she ran smack dab into F4 bringing her to a complete halt. The runner returned to 1B on her own after the collision... ball comes back in, play over.

I was holding OBS.

I knew she would have made 2b had there been no obs (or pretty darn close, close enough!). I awarded her 2B.

Defensive coach argued that she did not attempt 2B, she returned to 1B, so she should not have been awarded 2B.

Did I make the right call?