Thanks,Cannonball,Mozzy,3Bsnag, for reply

[FPdawg]

First, sorry to hear about family situation yesterday Cannonball, and I did say in a previous post I respect all coaches, and any good teacher knows if you have a system, know how to present it, and have a positive attitude you will have success. I have never said BB coaches don't know anything about a swing; these BB coaches are some of the best in the world. Please listen to what I am saying, and I do not want to get a JB VS BJ thing going, I am a pure SB coach and teach SB pitching and hitting, I think most can see a connection between them, in softball not baseball. First to answer your statement SGsnag, last FP league I played 11 years straight, San Diego ca it included playing for Kevin Mitchell’s team, (he played CF for SF Giants) I had LBA .456 AVE. 560 OB% and averaged less than 2 strikeouts per season,30 game season not counting tournaments, one in which I pitched against Mexico's Pan Am team and took game 2-0 I played allot in Mexico with MLB players in the MLB off season, most coaches know that many pros play in Mexico or Dominick in off season. Ok now you are going to say shure you did, I'm 60 now and still play and pitch and am willing to put it on the field with any of you that are really knowledgeable about SOFTBALL not BASEBALL, I'm dead nuts serious, I live in Mobile AL, moved here two years ago, but am real familiar with SOCAL, let’s have some fun and get a clinic going out in the OC all I need is $ 600 for roundtrip ticket to get there and back, I'LL do the clinic free, some so-called coaches charge that much just to teach ball players how to put their shoes on, or how to spit tobacco, come on this could be the biggest thing in softball for 2008, charge a few bucks for players to attend and just use the money to cover expenses, come on I'm willing to put my theory on the field where it can be seen, touched, smelled, tasted, looked at and then tested, let’s get some pro BB hitters and coaches, this is no joke, you can get these guys in on this they love the publicity and exposure. Back in the 80's I got Buzzie Bavasie to put my National IGS champions on the field at QUALCOMM for a Women’s FP game before Padres came out, 45000 plus fans, not bad for a girls FP game. Ok really if you think I don't know softball then get up and let’s do it Baby. OK I know I get to Rollin and can’t stop, I love FP, ok everybody said ya right the elite girls can blow a pitch by a pro MLB, but just give them some time in the cage and they will eat Jenny alive. Thank you for making my point, they have to take many, many, many swings before they will come close, next you won’t even come close to finding any kind of swing that looks like even one of your shadow BB home run swings. listen they will have to open up a little more, load shorter and faster, and start hip rotation fraction sooner, remember now they are open a little more already, kind of like a lefty running slap hitter, minus the running. Cannonball I know from chats with you, you got your stuff all in one bag, and congrads on what sounds like some great guidance on not one but two great softball players. Like I said I'm not bashing coaches, and somebody with Cannonballs experience will always take a team or a player to the top, and he has proven that. Now listen close all I have said is Baseball and Softball hitting are not the same, the ball does not come through the zone on the same plane, the ball deffinently does not have rotation same as BB, the ball does not even come from a similar release point and arm motion through batters visual concentration point, the ball for sure does not move like a BB, and for the statement that ball cross plate in same place, come on give me a break this might be close but only on a two dimensional plane(meaning if you put a bulls eye on the fence a FP pitcher and BB pitcher might hit the same bulls eye but what the balls do before they get to bulls eye and where the go after passing the plane of bulls eye is like day and night diff. A good coach will always have success so my hats off to all you coaches and you know good leadership will always produce, I'm talking pure softball the rise ball was invented to pitch to BB players and that’s one reason a pro MLB player can’t hit it, and if they need time to adjust, that means they have to change their swing to softball mechanics, I know I have pitched to many pro ball players and some for more than 3 seasons and they still scratch their heads on their way back to the dugout. This is pretty bold talk so come on don’t take this personal BB coaches, I love ya Baby, and like I said I'LL back my talk up on the field, I'LL pitch to any BB hitting coach, then hit while they pitch to me or bring in your ringer, I want our young players that want to play FP to go beyond just one known and videotaped swing and learn the game of softball. Look at those videos what a joke to make a point somebody finds a video of BB player swinging at high outside pitch then for the great analogy and many strange geometrical shapes and configurations drawn then finds a clip of BB hitter swinging at low inside pitch, then spews all hiss great wisdom on hitting and says gee look triple quadrodisectionalsliding trapzingle doesn’t fit in crotch of second hitter, come on guys this is a bunch of voodoo quackazodil crap, now come on back and let’s talk softball honest I'm not trying to jerk anybodies chain, admit it there is life beyond baseball skills it’s called Fast Pitch Softball. FPdawg..... Let’s have some good discussion, not try to put each other down, I know we all have the same goal, excellence in SB

[Cannonball]

Coach Mike,

I know that you were not bashing my or any other BB coach and personally, I didn't take any offense at all. Also, I respect your opinion and the length you went to explain yourself in this thread. My point is that there are a lot of factors involved in a hitting style and so, a coach's knowledge, the ability to transfer that knowledge and the amount of repetitions set the stage for success. Also, when I referenced my child in the previous thread, I didn't want to give anybody the impression that she is a world beater. She works hard and has been taught hitting from the time she could swing a bat in every clinic I've given in baseball. Naturally, some of that transfers to softball. However, she's 14 and so, with that comes everything associated with 14 year olds. LOL!


As with any info presented on this site, or any site, we'd all do well to read all of the opinions out there and then decide what is best for our players/children.

Take care,

[FPdawg]

I agree, its a combonation of all and any good positive techneques, I just want players and coaches to realize there are some methods in softball that are way different than baseball, lets face it we all grew up on baseball, it's second only to God, but somebody tell me how many of the people posting have actually played softball at highest levels, I'm willing to listen to anyones good advise, I did play baseball, was scouted by cleveland in 65 then broke my ankle sliding at third and that was end of that. FPdawg

[Blind Squirrel]

"As with any info presented on this site, or any site, we'd all do well to read all of the opinions out there and then decide what is best for our players/children."

IMO, this could be the single best statement I've read. No need to take disagreements personally. Sometimes you're right. Sometimes you're wrong. And sometimes there is no single, objective right or wrong. And I don't know crap about hitting, though I did play 1 year of Little League when I was 7 or 8.

John

[ssarge]

I just want players and coaches to realize there are some methods in softball that are way different than baseball,

Great - define them so we can have an idea what you are talking about. Then, if you would, contrast how the hitting mechanics you advocate differ from those typical in MLB baseball. I suppose it is the same answer, but could you also define what you teach differently in the swing than do people like Candrea and Enquist (not a set-up question - there are things in the swing I teach differently than Candrea and Enquist.)

You keep advocating discussion, and I am really trying. But you have not answered any of my points of variance with your position. Please take an opportunity to set me straight.

Have you viewed the Candrea and Enquist video? Do you have any sense what hitting mechanics they teach?

Have you viewed the FP clips at Siggy's site or elsewhere?

Have you responded to my question about hitting mechanics which you have found to be more successful (than MLB-type mechanics) against Fernandez and Finch's riseballs? Where are the hitters using the mechanics you advocate to dominate against those pitches by those pitchers?

Have you seen the ESPN clip of Danyelle Gomez (ULL) hitting an Osterman riseball about 4,000 feet using MLB mechanics? Maybe she was just lucky (maybe all 84 of her D1 HRs were lucky). Can you tell us what in her swing mechanics are deficient so that she would seldom be able to repeat this action?

Again, if you TRULY want to study these questions rather than simply wax philosophic, I am willing to help, to engage, to persuade, and perhaps to be persuaded. But you HAVE to do some homework, and it doesn't sound as if you have. The game - especially hitting mechanics - has changed dramatically in the past few years. And for a reason. To not be familiar with those changes is to do a disservice to any kids with whom you are engaged. However positive your intentions. And I believe they ARE positive. But you have to understand the other position to refute it, and it is clear you don't. I don't understand yours either, but it is not for lack of trying.

If you need clips, let me know. I will eMail them to you. Including the Gomez clip against Osterman. If you would like to see Enquist's newest instructional materials on hitting the riseball - illustrated with game film of actual UCLA hitters, let me know. I will risk copyright violation and eMail that to you.


Your offer to perform a free clinic to demonstrate the efficacy of your method is laudable. Clearly, you are sincerely trying to give back to the game, and that is great. However, it asks a lot of a serious player to participate in such a clinic without first pre-defining methodology and expected outcome. It is VERY clear what is expected by colleges of a full-swing hitter these days. Both mechanically, and in terms of results (line drives and HRs).

Regards,

Scott


P.S. - take the last word, either by actually responding to one of my posts, or again starting another thread to re-make the same points. If you actually want to engage, let's look at the same video together (male and female hitters), and mutually describe what we see. Good learning experience for each of us, and presumably for everyone. If that does not appeal to you, then I'm afraid my interest has waned.

Best wishes to you.

[ssarge]

I can't figure out how to load a video clip on this board yet; it keep timing-out and asking me to re-log in.

Found the clip I wanted to post on another site (I have no affiliation with the site), linked below:

http://norcalhitting.com/

It is a side-by-side clip of FP and MLB hitters. Many clips like this out there, but this is good becuase the pitch locations are similar.

You can "right-click" on the clip, and save it to your desktop as an animated GIF. It can then be opened and viewed frame-by-frame in either QuickTime or Windows Media Player.

This clip actually is 7-8 years old, meaning that it pre-dates the sea-change in FP hitting mechanics (the current very common desire to emulate the MLB swing). I would submit this as evidence that elite female athletes of the past - in some cases - actually OVERCAME flawed instruction in order to be successful.

Then again, I could be all wet. Wouldn't be the first time. What differences do you see in the mechanics of these two hitters?

Regards,

Scott

[FPdawg]

This is pefect, this is just what I have been talking about, now look where baseball catcher is set up way outside and pitcher does his job, batter takes a high outside swing, and rolls his hands with his bat and arms extended, looks like fairly good form he tracks the ball. Now lets look at softballpicture. Now where is the catcher in the sofball video, gut shot, only problem is pitcher either has worst form in history, or she hangs her glide foot and falls almost on her face ,now watch closely, this causes batter to start her load and then eventually double load and consequently gets her hips out of sync and complets a survival swing at a ball that is agreat change or like I said she saved herself from an illeagle pitch by releasing it before she breaks contact with drag foot and saves herself from a faceplant. It's easier to catch these things if you have been watching and coaching softball for 30 + years,, thanks, great example of the MLB swing side by side with FP & BB hitters.....FPdawg

[bradrhod]

You see things different in these videos. I have only been at this a few years, so I am more than willing to learn.

First, I think both hits are for homeruns.

On the FP hitter.

-This is a rise ball that does not quite rise, rises late, or is pitched to low to start with.
-It is a little on the outside corner but gets enough of the plate to be worthwhile.
-The hitter seems set up with a closed stance at the start and throughout the swing. Perhaps she is doing this because she is looking for the outside pitch. Perhaps this is her style.
-The hitter does a great job of letting this pitch get deep and squaring it up

On the baseball side pitch seems to be a breaking ball that is breaking back in, but breaks to far and gets hit for a homerun. Again the hitter does a good job of letting the pitch get deep so they can swing through the pitch.

I agree with you that people often select clips that show thier philosophical approach to hitting. In a discussion on rotation, they select a clip showing an inside pitch. On a discussion on how the hands work, the show video of a high and in pitch where the hitter may be making a late adjustment. Not a problem in general, but they then argue that these clips demonstrate a normal swing.

I differ with you on one point that you are making. That you can either choose to hit for percentage or hit for power in fastpitch. 8 years ago this used to be the prevailing wisdom. Now things have progressed. For instance Katy Chochran hit .492, 18 home runs, .624 ob% and .888 slg%. She is an exceptional hitter, but if you looking at hitting stats you will see the number of homeruns and batting averages continue to go up year over year.

There are two reasons this has changed over the last 8 or so years.
- Hitting has progressed. Female fastpitch hitters are working harder than ever, starting at a younger ages and working over a longer periods of time. They are just better hitters. They are doing the strength conditioning.
- Defense has progressed. Outfielders at the high levels, 18 gold, college level are amazing atheletes. They can cover the entire outfield. Outfields are contained in 200' fences. You often see outfielders start with thier backs to the fence, knowing that they can run down all but the hardest hit line drives. Anymore, there are no gaps on a fastpitch diamond. Young ladies learn at a young age that they have to drive the ball. Now a days even when you are slapping you have to pound the ball.

[ssarge]

I agree with you that people often select clips that show thier philosophical approach to hitting. In a discussion on rotation, they select a clip showing an inside pitch. On a discussion on how the hands work, the show video of a high and in pitch where the hitter may be making a late adjustment. Not a problem in general, but they then argue that these clips demonstrate a normal swing.

This is true, and a good point. There are certain posters who make a number of didactic points about hitting mechanics, claiming that each of those points is universal among elite hitters. And offer clips to back up one of the points. The problem is, NONE of the clips back up all of the "universal" claims.

In the case of the side-by-side clip - which I didn't produce - I think the pitch position is very similar. Of course, the BB clip IS an off-speed pitch, and so the male hitter has a longer window to load and swing. Making the point as far as I am concerned - the FP hitter achieves the same mechanics in less elapsed time. Or perhaps more accurately, in a shorter time window.

Best regards,

Scott

[GoyardGirl]

Since a majority of you believe that the techniques used by MLB elites can be acheived by softball players. Is there anyone hitting softballs today as unorthodox as Vladimir Guerrero. Who is easily one of todays most feared hitters. Which goes back to what I said before. There are as many styles as there are fish. But certain perameters need to be achieved to be successful.
Would you not all agree that bat speed at the point of contact is probably #1. Provided of course that a hitters ability to locate the pitch is made. I think maybe it would be best to look at hitting as a scientific artform to truly understand what you are teaching. Repetitve motions along with stylized approach. So when blending the two the hitter has the ability to make adjustments based on location and type of pitch. If you teach robotic mechanisms there will always be a weakness to the swing. The greatest hitters and coaches understand this. That is why they try to take away the weaknesses and turn them into strengths. The art of a truly great hitter is to quickly recognize the type of pitch and locate its intended location all at the same time without losing any balance upon swinging with batspeed. However a player achieves that goal is the ultimate objective.