ASA National Format - no pool play for bracket placement

[fasterpitch92701]

This might have been reviewed, I believe, on a post or two prior to the 14U Nats. I haven't read any posts over the past week since I have been... out of town in Texas.

Regardless, I will offer this: not having pool play determine bracket seeding is possibly the most unfortunate screw-up I have seen in a long, long time. ASA, to be more blunt, botched this badly. The first two games are of no value. Many teams simply showed up, played players that might not otherwise play and then went to the predetermined (by ????) bracket play.

For those of you that believe this new methodology of random chance is wonderful, consider what would happen if Lakewood and Corona met in the first "real" game... Victory and the other Lakewood (pick one) in another first game. I suppose one could rationalize that the losers bracket would be... interesting.

Or, pick a team that gets say... 2 local Texas filler "B" ball teams after their two "practice" games.

What was inherently wrong with playing four pool games, letting the results determine seeding? Won/loss, runs allowed, runs scored, heads up, etc.... as is done (in some variation) at almost any other quality tournament. What on earth was ASA thinking? Or were they? I can tell you that the excuse... excuse often heard in Midland was that "it offered teams to play other teams they might not otherwise play". Huh ??? Is that a joke? Hint, hint; that happens anyway.

Can anyone come up with a lucid, rational, reasonable reason why a national tournament seeding would be predetermined by ????, with the first two games played being totally irrelevant to anything???

Logical, lucid insights appreciated.

Enjoy in good health...

[wadeintothem]

I agree.. it goes against all logic to have pool play, especially in a championship, that means absolutely nothing.

[Fasterpitch]

I am really happy that someone brought this subject up. I was so mad about it earlier in the week, that I tried to block it out.

This format is DUMB.

I agree with the original poster. If you choose to not think this format help the powerhouses then you are in the dark. Look back at all brackets from all of the National Championships. You will not see for example; Corona Angels vs. OC batbusters anywhere.

It must have been a coincidence, but we played all pool games at 2pm everyday. Then our first bracket game was at 2pm, then our next bracket game was at , you guessed it 2pm.

As I asked other teams about, they followed the same schedules( they played all beginning games and brackets at 8am). Can this just be they luck of the draw, I do not think so.

We did travel 1000 miles to play softball, and we had a great time. It would have been nice to see a little piece of the country that we had never seen before. With 2pm start times every day (except 2nd round and beyond of bracket play)you are unable to see or do anything. I hear Kentucky is a beautiful state, but I would not know.


The TD and organizers did do a great job when the rains came.

On another subject, ASA please choose locations with better climate. I am from Texas and I never would have thought KY would be Hotter this time of year. Dam it was HOT, and ample SHADE at all.

[KPC]

Yes a joke. The pool blay layout was set up simple to determine seeding. You can get someone hurt playing meaningless games which happened frequently. At least it would have meant something and had something to play for.

[anonlooker]

In 12U in Alabama, Anderson Heat, TX Travelers and the Grapettes were all in the same grouping of four to begin brackets. They were 3 of the best teams there, and due to this random seeding two were in the loser's bracket early and couldn't quite fight their way back to the top.
If the idea is to get the best teams in games late Saturday and into Sunday, then there should be some kind of seeding system.
IMHO

[fasterpitch92701]

Every major tournament through the season runs, typically, a viable 4 game pool play for brackets. So, why the change? Run pool play Monday-Tuesday with enough fields to support the process. Bracket play Thursday-Sunday. This is not rocket science and it has been done, is being done and will be done in the future by organizations with a grasp on the reality of the game.

As it is, it appears that ASA is picking obtuse sites that can't support a national tourney in any kind of "standard" format. In order to make the timing satisfactory it appears... appears that ASA is diluting the game, the competition and the ability of players and teams to play meaningful games in order to wedge in a tournament at a site with marginal logistics. Instead of picking viable sites they marginalize the game with arbitrary seeding that has no rational basis. In the end, the players and team lose. All of them.

That's my opinion. It exists because there is, apparently, no rational explanation from ASA as to why they would do this. Sadly, it only hurts ASA in the long run as quality teams will become disenfranchised with ASA's direction and simply migrate to other major tournaments run by organizations that can and will run a real pool/bracket process.

So, what's the story, ASA ??? Is there anyone available to offer the unwashed masses a viable story as to the basis of the current scheme? Is there anyone at ASA willing to educate its clientele as to its rationale.

Hello ASA !!!! Hello !!!! Anyone out there ?????

[Skarp]

If the idea is to get the best teams in games late Saturday and into Sunday, then there should be some kind of seeding system.
IMHO

If you're talking pool play, that just backs the problem up a step, because presumably the pools would themselves be populated by a blind draw. Take TCS nats, for example, where the bottom two teams from one 12U pool finished 1st-2nd in the International Bracket. Obviously that was a much tougher pool than the others.

Admittedly it's not as much of a problem when all of the teams from pool play are seeded into the championship bracket. But it is inevitable that some teams will draw soft pools while others have to chew on steel...and then you're facing the same problem, with extremely tough lower seeds facing top seeds early on.

[Comp]

Either this has been many peoples first experience with ASA nationals or ASA has done something different with 14 nationals in past years. My daughter has played at 16A nationals, 18A nationals, and 18 gold nationals and every one of them has been a blind draw for first round. The only year that was even remotely different was her 16 year that ASA decided to get rid of pool play and go to a straight 3 game gaurantee elimination bracket. Everyone raised such a stink about it that they put the pool play back in the next year.

As indicated above, even if you did base it off pool play, you would still have some kind of blind draw for the pools, so it would still be based in some way on a draw. When you get that many teams trying to base it off of pool play would be next to impossible and no one would know who, where, or when they would be playing until literally the morning of elimination brackets.

Saw on another post people griping about playing pool games when they dont mean anything and just risking hurting girls. After the experience of the year they got rid of pool play, I can assure you everyone would want it back if they didnt have it. You have just moved your girls across how many time zones, sleeping in hotels, different food, different weather etc etc etc and to just jump into competitive games with no tune ups is a nightmare. Most host cities have almost every field tied up for the tournament, so in order to get practice time you end up working out in the parking lot of the hotel. If you can find a field, you are usually standing in line waiting for another team to get off. Not to mention, the girls all have major butterflys the first game or two, and its nice to work them out before eliminations.

[fasterpitch92701]

There is always, in virtually any system, some degree of chance regarding who plays what, when. The key is to minimize chance (good OR bad luck) and maximize the results of team competence. Not luck. ASA appears to have forgotton the point of these tournaments.

Having 4 real pool play games allows a major chance component to be lessened. Not eliminated, but lessened. Won/lost, runs allowed, runs scored, heads up... it's done every day. Does it totally eliminate the chance factor? No. Nothing will. But it significantly lessens it. The overall point is that any team should not have a major advantage or disadvantage dictated by a blind draw that has no basis on performance. The overall results of a tournament should be the result of what happens between the lines, not significant affected by what happens as part of an arbitrary, non-sensical draw.

As it stands, ASA is losing support of its customer base. ASA's choice of locations is mind boggling. Non-sensical, meaningless pool play doesn't help. As I attend more Triple Crown events (and other non-ASA events) it is obvious that ASA will lose much of its focus as highly talented, premier teams (yes, including the LA teams) choose to play events that reflect and demonstrate a teams capability, not arbitrary mandates of the sponsoring organization. In 16 and 18U it will be more apparent anyway as competent showcase tourneys take precedence. I suppose ASA could focus on 8U-10U.

Just my opinion... enjoy in good health.

[Comp]

Pool play, blind draw, what ever method you use to set your bracket doesnt matter. It comes down to, win your games and you dont have to worry about it.