Are pitching rules enforced adequately?

[jofus]

Just throwing up another topic for discussion

We were playing in a 14U tournament last summer, and faced a girl that was only 13, but good sized, maybe a little bigger than my DD, so say 5'7" and 120ish lbs. I know pretty much how fast our pitchers throw, about 52, maybe 54 mph on a good day. Judging this girl by that, she was hitting around 60. She's also a heck of a SS, smashes the ball at the plate, and has good speed...basically a very good ballplayer.

In this game, she started out fine, but by the 2nd or 3rd inning, she was starting to crow hop. They were beating us already, they were a better team and had beat us in a previous tournament with a different girl pitching, and I'm probably too nice for my own good sometimes, so, as I was coaching first, I casually mentioned to one of her coaches that she was starting to hop some. She (the coach) said something like "wow, she is, isn't she...that's not normal for her. We're gonna have to work on that to stop it." I figured that was fine, I'm not one to make a fuss over stuff like that.

Jump ahead to 2 weeks later, and we're playing the same team in the final game of a tournament, and of course she's pitching again. Well, she's hopping from the first pitch this game. I figure, I've already mentioned it to them (and I like the coaches of that team way better than a lot I've seen), so what the heck, I'll mention it to the umpire this time, mainly just to see what he would do.

"Well," he said, "the mound isn't in very good shape in front of the rubber, it's pretty dug out". Now, I agreed with him, it was...but, she was hopping so bad, she would have been doing it in any case. Plus, I pointed out to him that our pitcher was using the same rubber and wasn't doing it. This was after we had batted that inning, so he said he would keep an eye on it.

Well, 4 innings later, she was as bad or worse, and of course, he never even mentioned it to her or her coaches.

So, my question is, is this normal? Do pitchers get away with this all over, or was it a case of us playing a kanawha valley team in a kanawha valley tournament, so the rules were a little different?

What about the 2 foot "alley" established by the rubber? I see girls all the time stepping beyond that boundary, but I figure if you can't get crow-hopping called, the umps probably don't even know about that rule

Just curious what people see in other areas...I assume the rules are similar for most tournaments (other than the one foot on rubber v 2 feet on rubber, which I think varies some).

[artomatic]

back in 8's we told an ump about a girl doing that, and it caused a big scene between my team and the opponent...and the girl ended up crying and just falling apart...after that game, i vowed to myself that i would never bring that issue up to an umpire again. to me, if it's obvious, a good ump will call it, and my team won't get the blame and the negative energy from the other side...now and then I'll get my parents telling me "look that pitcher is ilegal"..i tell them to not focus on it...because it also takes our focus away from the game..
is this the right way? i don't know, but its how i do it...

you know, you can find a flaw in almost any pitcher's delivery if you really look hard and long enough...i would rather focus on my team and leave that issue to the umps...

JMHO

[Cannonball]

I will bet that 60% of the teams we play will start saying something about our pitchers and their feet. It has become annoying. I have video of all of our girls and they are all legal. Then, I realized that in our area, this is a ploy. Coaches do that to get to the pitcher. What is ironic is that you can sit in the stands at some of our tournaments with coaches that now do this and hear them complain unrelentingly to the umps about each other.

The call made the most in our area is contact by the stride foot. Crow hopping etc. seldom gets called. OH, at one facility, they will call the pitcher taking signs. We had one ump that must have called this a million times. I told him I'm not familure with that rule. He said that they have to pause and take a sign. Not to give stuff away but we don't use normal signs. If we do, they are to decieve the other team. To make him happy, our catcher had to put her hand down on every pitch and pretend to signal.

[Lannie]

I agree with cannonball. I have seen countless times when a team is getting beat " Not implying anything towards you jofus" that the opposing coach will make comments to the ump about the pitcher. I commend you on how you handled it jofus! Last tour we played in this fall. We were playing 18U with 14U team. Of course the other teams were overlooking us. But, when we showed up for the championship game people started taking us serious. My DD got the call for that game. Like I said before she is not very big and when we play up she isnt taken serious till ohhhh, about the 3rd inning. By that time the other team starts to get quite and it never fails..... The coach starts his ranting about her being illegal. Now..... I am a stickler for mechanics! Its been drilled into her head by her pitching coach and Dad that mechanics! mechanics! mechanics is what makes a pitcher! I know she isnt pitching illegal and the umps know she isnt as well. SO... I told my DD to take it as a compliment when the coaches start complaining. They are just trying to make an excuse for getting beat by a leprechaun, and yes before someone ask me if my DD knows Im calling her that. Her HS coach pinned that name on her.

[Lannie]

Does the rule book say anything about if the catcher is the only one that is supposed to give the sign. Sometimes we let our 3rd or 1st basemen give the signal.

[katjoebenmom]

Excellent post Artomatic---very Zen-like attitude.

And you're right, a good ump will notice and call it himself, while a poor one won't/can't enforce it even if it was pointed out to him (so why bring all that aggravation on yourself and your team?)

While I do believe that crow-hopping constitutes an advantage to a pitcher (release point is several feet closer to the plate), it probably doesn't make that much of a difference at the younger levels.

And if a coach knowingly let's his own pitcher continue with this habit, (especially at advanced levels) he is only doing her a disservice in the long-run.

[artomatic]

Excellent post Artomatic---very Zen-like attitude.

And you're right, a good ump will notice and call it himself, while a poor one won't/can't enforce it even if it was pointed out to him (so why bring all that aggravation on yourself and your team?)

While I do believe that crow-hopping constitutes an advantage to a pitcher (release point is several feet closer to the plate), it probably doesn't make that much of a difference at the younger levels.

And if a coach knowingly let's his own pitcher continue with this habit, (especially at advanced levels) he is only doing her a disservice in the long-run.

thanks kat...if our pitcher gets called, i also make it a point to talk quietly w/ the ump BETWEEN INNINGS, so as not to show him up, and I ask him "did you call it on your own, or did the other coach point it out to you?" it's usually about 50/50...but asking between innings and not showing the ump up goes a long ways towards getting calls later in the game and in the future when we get the same ump...same with balls and strikes...if i can keep quiet, and especially when the calls don't seem right, and the other coach starts riding the ump, well, you can figure out which way the calls will go as the game progresses...

it always cracks me up when i hear the "she's crowhopping" accusations--i imagine the player is making outfield throws, that's what I consider "crowhopping"...we work on it in practice!

[SoCalFP]

Does the rule book say anything about if the catcher is the only one that is supposed to give the sign. Sometimes we let our 3rd or 1st basemen give the signal.

No, the catcher doesn't even "have" to give a sign. The pitcher just must pause as if a sign is being given.

[jofus]

The only reason I mentioned it to the ump was because I had politely pointed it out to her coaches 2 weeks before, and they agreed with me and thanked me for telling them quietly rather than saying anything to the ump or where she could hear it, saying that they would have to work with her to break the bad habit. I had a pretty strong feeling that he wouldn't call it, but I figured I would find out, and I made sure that no one heard me other than him.

I have seen this issue come up in little league, and girls get upset and let it affect their pitching, whether they were actually doing it or not.

My DD does do it occasionally in her workouts, and every time she knows she did it without anyone telling her, so hopefully it will never become a "habit", even if pitchers do get away with it. Heck, watching the championship last year, to my eyes Abbot was doing it, at least on some pitches

As for the "taking the sign", if I'm not mistaken, I believe the rule is that you have to first present the ball to an umpire (can be the ump behind you or the home plate ump, interestingly), and then after you bring your hands together, you have to pause for a full second prior to starting your pitching motion. Maybe that's the rule(s) the ump was referring to?

[Cannonball]

Does the rule book say anything about if the catcher is the only one that is supposed to give the sign. Sometimes we let our 3rd or 1st basemen give the signal.

No, the catcher doesn't even "have" to give a sign. The pitcher just must pause as if a sign is being given.

That is correct and we were pausing. In fact, our girls, take a deep breath before they throw a pitch. However, he insisted that the hand had to go down and give a signal. HE WAS WRONG!