Expectations

[bradrhod]

Actually I am not kidding. It does not feel like this information is widley known, written down or understood. I have heard the "The adjustments that you mention are not annual changes, but attempts to better explain what should be called." explanation before. But, if these explainations are not changing how strikes are called, then they are not needed. Since they are changing how strikes are called, they should be written down in common clear language and understood by all.

Every year it is the same thing. Buddy up to some umpires early in the season and find out what strike zone was taught at the winter clinic. In fact, by stating this I am giving out one of those secrets.

Here is a question to you on this.... Why would it be bad to write down the current strikezone, in common clear, well documented langauge, that can be clearly refrenced so that everyone coaches, players, fans and umpires are on the same page as to the strike zone?

[MTR]

After reading at length, but again, without an ASA Rule Book, I've found some of the following:

Two different definitions of the strike zone from two different organizations:

“The top of the strike zone is the mid-level between the top of the batter's shoulders and the belt, and the bottom is at the level just beneath the knee cap. The right and left boundaries of the strike zone correspond to the edges of home plate (excluding the black edges of the plate). A pitch at which the batter does not swing and which does not pass through the strike zone is called a ball. Unofficially, the de facto enforced strike zone may be different at any different level; see "Enforcement" below.”

“The Strike Zone is defined as that area over homeplate the upper limit of which is a horizontal line at the midpoint between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants, and the lower level is a line at the hollow beneath the kneecap. The Strike Zone shall be determined from the batter's stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball.”

Yet you fail to identify your source though I suspect it is from baseball

From a History of the Strike Zone:

1996 - The Strike Zone is expanded on the lower end, moving from the top of the knees to the bottom of the knees.

Again, no source, but it is from a Sporting News article by Steve Marantz published in 1996. BTW, we are talking about softball here, not baseball which is the subject of the piece.

Here it is: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-18166745.html

NSA Rule word for word:

Sec. 40 STRIKE ZONE: The strike zone is that space over any part of the plate between the batter’s highest shoulder and his/her front knee when the batter assumes a natural stance. Where the ball contacts the ground or glove has no bearing on the actual strike zone.

Sorry, but you are either wrong or trying to BS the susceptable. Here is the 2008 NSA Rule Book http://www.playnsa.com/pdfs/NSA_Rule_Book_2008.pdf

There are two Sec. 40 in the book and neither of them have anything to do with the strike zone. One defines a "Quick Pitch" and the other, "Legally Caught Ball".

You will find the strike zone I defined also in this document on page 94 (PDF format).

MRT, having read the above and, again, playing NSA Rules, I don't believe my statement was in error on what constituted/s a strike.

Then we will just have to agree to disagree.

When you mention attending clinics etc. in our state we are required to attend a clinic every year on the rules of the game. I've attended those clinics for some time now. I'm certainly not new to coaching but won't bore you with a resume. I do believe from the tone of your post that you don't think much of coaches.

I attend a couple clincs a year, give a few each year. The rules are one thing. Understanding the judgment and associated mechanics are another. This is why I open all my clinics to anyone who walks in the door and there is no charge.

Actually, I think well of good coaches and those who are trying to help teach the girls. I don't think much of coaches who are there for the purpose of self-promotion and winning at all cost. Nor do I care for people who think they are the second coming of Gene Mauch, Billy Martin, Earl Weaver, etc. The only thing one proves by acting like an ass on a ball field is that person is probably an ass. And that isn't just coaches, but anyone including an umpire. There are too many coaches who believe that what they see on TV is the way things are supposed to be everywhere and emulate it. You have no idea how many times I've heard a coach reference a call they saw in a MLB ball game and thinking that is justification for berating an umpire.[/quote]

Perhaps the best point made in this thread is the width of the ball and that if a ball is "at the knees" then a portion of that ball has to be at that point just above the kneecap.

But that isn't what the coaches want. They want the entire ball above the knee. At least that is what the NCAA believes.

As with the white of the plate, if any fraction of that ball crosses the white of that plate, then, it is a strike provided it is of the proper height. (That is unless anyone would suggest that a hitter could go to the back of the batter's box, put their feet together and stand there forcing the ball to travel that deep into the batter's box. Then again, the depth of where the hitter stands is not to influence the call.)

Then why raise the issue?

[Sam]

This type of thread is always funny because the coaches and managers always want to apply different standards for the umpires than they would expect of themselves. To most coaches, the umpire must always be correct, while they don't want to approached about ANY of the horrible game decisions they make every week....just a crackup.

[umpinva]

This type of thread is always funny because the coaches and managers always want to apply different standards for the umpires than they would expect of themselves. To most coaches, the umpire must always be correct, while they don't want to approached about ANY of the horrible game decisions they make every week....just a crackup.

Actually the thread of this post is "What are the coach's expectations of the umpire/s who officiate their games."

[Cannonball]

NSA Rule Book

http://www.playnsa.com/pdfs/NSA_Rule_Book_2008.pdf

Go to page 13. I believe that what I cited is very accurate. Per the others, I typed in Fastpitch Strike Zone. Those definitions came up in documents. It is easy enough any time someone copies a quote from the internet to find the source. I cited several sources describing knee or below the kneecap per my assertion that this constituted a strike. In fact it does according to those definitions. It also, in no way contridicts what I have posted about NSA. Per the post on the strike being below the kneecap, and the in the year 1996, just shows that while attributed to baseball, I had not lost my mind and was actually very close in presenting that time frame. BTW, MTR, the encyclopedia source you cited and suggested that I copied is not the site I read. I do intend to go back and read the one you linked so thanks. Again, I typed into the search engine, "Fastpitch Softball Rules" and "Fastpitch Softball Strike Zone" for the "stuff" I referenced. At the time, I wasn't worried about references. I'll do better in the future as I'm sure you will when called on specifics and so, I'm waiting for you to now reference rulebook defintions that prove our original dispute in error. That being your assertion that knee level is not a strike. Along with that, then you can explain whether if the ball is at knee level, if any portion of it is above the knee is the pitch then a strike by rule and not interpretation.

Sam, for reference, I have never coached a perfect game as a coach. I have coached a perfect team. (40-0-1998 which was the #1 high school baseball team in America. That team went on to also win the American Legion National Championship.)

[Sam]

NSA Rule Book

http://www.playnsa.com/pdfs/NSA_Rule_Book_2008.pdf

Go to page 13. I believe that what I cited is very accurate. Per the others, I typed in Fastpitch Strike Zone. Those definitions came up in documents. It is easy enough any time someone copies a quote from the internet to find the source. I cited several sources describing knee or below the kneecap per my assertion that this constituted a strike. In fact it does according to those definitions. It also, in no way contridicts what I have posted about NSA. Per the post on the strike being below the kneecap, and the in the year 1996, just shows that while attributed to baseball, I had not lost my mind and was actually very close in presenting that time frame.

Sam, for reference, I have never coached a perfect game as a coach. I have coached a perfect team. (40-0-1998 which was the #1 high school baseball team in America. That team went on to also win the American Legion National Championship.)

We have something in common....I played on an undefeated high school team that won our State Championship. That team was managed by a guy who didn't know the rules, was a terrible nuts and bolts coach, and was the best motivational coach I have ever had the pleasure of playing for.

My point was that coaches expect much more of umpires than they expect of themselves. Parents expectations are pretty much even....they expect the umpires and coaches to be perfect.

Umpinva's question is not a very good one. It is what the NCAA umpires ask of the coaches...which is why the NCAA umpires call the worst strike zones in organized softball. They say they call the zone the coaches WANT them to call. It has no direct correlation to the zone in the rule book. It is a case of the doctor asking the inmates exactly how they would like to see the asylum run....

[Cannonball]

Sam, I understand. I hope I'm not that crazy coach.

For reference and the suggestion by MRT that I was attempting to decieve, in trying to get an accurate description of the NSA strike zone, I went back to the wrong file and cut and pasted. I copied the NSA Rules from 2005. http://www.playnsa.com/pdfs/NSA_Rule_Book_2005.pdf Therefore, the post was inaccurate but again not unlike the present rule. Hope this clears it up some. I apologize for the error and my intend was never to mislead.

[MTR]

Sam, I understand. I hope I'm not that crazy coach.

For reference and the suggestion by MRT that I was attempting to decieve, in trying to get an accurate description of the NSA strike zone, I went back to the wrong file and cut and pasted. I copied the NSA Rules from 2005. http://www.playnsa.com/pdfs/NSA_Rule_Book_2005.pdf Therefore, the post was inaccurate but again not unlike the present rule. Hope this clears it up some. I apologize for the error and my intend was never to mislead.

I stated that you were either wrong or trying to BS someone. That is a note of possible scenarios, not an accusation or suggestion. It turns out you made a mistake. It happens.

I can understand the confusion as NSA offers multiple, but inconsistent definitions. This little exchange may be an example of what I was talking about. You, as a coach, found a definition and stopped looking. It supported your belief and that is what you were seeking. I was more curious and looked for all information and found a completely different definition that was specific to FP & MP.

Now, think about this happening on the ball field in the middle of a game. It isn't like a computer where you have all kinds of search engines and "find" functions. The coach has time to do a little research. The umpire does not, s/he's working a ball game, but the only thing s/he is going to see is what the coach is offering. The umpire, nor the teams for that matter, have the time for the umpire to stop the game, sit down and properly conduct the research necessary to get it right which is the point everyone makes when this discussion occurs.

[MTR]

Umpinva's question is not a very good one. It is what the NCAA umpires ask of the coaches...which is why the NCAA umpires call the worst strike zones in organized softball. They say they call the zone the coaches WANT them to call. It has no direct correlation to the zone in the rule book. It is a case of the doctor asking the inmates exactly how they would like to see the asylum run....

The umpires do not have a choice. Tick off a coach and lose your assignments whether the umpire was right or wrong. The conference contracts an umpire association to cover their games. If an umpire ticks off a coach, that coach will be on the phone to the assignor in a heartbeat telling him/her what they think of the umpire and to never send them back to their field. If the assignor wants to keep the job and the modest cash it provides, s/he will acquiesce to the coach.

The NCAA has little to no control over the umpires until it comes to playoffs. It is all conference and the coaches pretty much control their game and will tell you so.

[Sam]

Umpinva's question is not a very good one. It is what the NCAA umpires ask of the coaches...which is why the NCAA umpires call the worst strike zones in organized softball. They say they call the zone the coaches WANT them to call. It has no direct correlation to the zone in the rule book. It is a case of the doctor asking the inmates exactly how they would like to see the asylum run....

The umpires do not have a choice. Tick off a coach and lose your assignments whether the umpire was right or wrong. The conference contracts an umpire association to cover their games. If an umpire ticks off a coach, that coach will be on the phone to the assignor in a heartbeat telling him/her what they think of the umpire and to never send them back to their field. If the assignor wants to keep the job and the modest cash it provides, s/he will acquiesce to the coach.

The NCAA has little to no control over the umpires until it comes to playoffs. It is all conference and the coaches pretty much control their game and will tell you so.

So you are a group of spineless worms....OK. I don't buy it. You can make one coach happy, but tick off the opposing coach. Come on...have a backbone and call the game as the book requires....that way you have something concrete to back up your entire constituency.