ahh heybucket, the adults version of the kids game grapevine....
The story floating around on another thread about the Jaguars caught my attention and as someone that knows the staff, seemed completely out of character. So even though I am not associated with the team, I did get the story from the horse's mouth.
The problem was that one girl in the outfield was not listed on the card. This was a mistake caught by the other team in the 2nd inning. With the flex/DP, the ump had a hard time understanding this and the result was a forced substitution of the #4 batter. Anyway #4 re-enters , but team is playing bad, coach is frustrated, and they forget to tell ump. Ump says, I warned you, you're cheating, you're out.
Hey mistakes happen, I did something similar Saturday. Late player scratch, I did my magnetic board lineup, and changed my mind before I wrote the 'real' card, but didn't go back and correct the mag board. Played three innings with the sub, no one caught it. Am I a cheater? I guess. And I challenge anyone to explain the DP/flex so we can understand it.
- were mistakes made on the lineup and communication with the ump - YES
- was there an ejection - YES
- was the ejection warranted (per the TD) - NO
- were there three flex players in the OF - NO
- do I believe that the coaches had any intention of gaining an unfair advantage - NO
- do I believe that these coaches would cheat in any game situation - NO
Anything else is just grist for the rumor mill.
AZ
Per someone who seems to know and posted on the umpiring board:
"He was ejected for unsportsman like conduct after being warned for not reporting substitutes and then doing it again 1 1/2 innings later."
Obviously there is great reason to suspect it may have just been a big mistake, but how do you forget to tell the ump of a substitution an inning or two after the ump warned you about it? Either way it reflects poorly on the coach. If he did not intend to cheat he is over his head coaching at a high level.
"He was ejected for unsportsman like conduct after being warned for not reporting substitutes and then doing it again 1 1/2 innings later."
Obviously there is great reason to suspect it may have just been a big mistake, but how do you forget to tell the ump of a substitution an inning or two after the ump warned you about it? Either way it reflects poorly on the coach. If he did not intend to cheat he is over his head coaching at a high level.
- Smiley
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:33 am
I wonder if this has ever happened:
coach: that call stunk blue
ump: this is your only warning, one more word and you're out
now any child knows not to say anything else, right? but 2 innings later:
coach: that call stunk blue
ump: I warned you, to the parking lot
Or this: 3rd game of a back-to-back-to-back, 2nd game went 1:50, ump is yelling for the card, you're trying to hurry, but Abby wears 2 on Saturday & 6 on Sunday, Becky and Carly decided to switch jerseys for the weekend, Darla hurt her pinkie, Ellie has jr high basketball, but will be here in the 4th inning, who to pitch, who to catch, EP/DP/AP/flex? There are many things occupying a coach's mind, before and during every game.
A coach that has never made a lineup mistake or let himself get flustered during a game must be, at least, God-like. If you are a parent....let's just say it is so easy to sit in judgement from the keyboard on Monday.
I'm sure he wants to put it behind him, so I won't say any more on it. Ultimately only his parents need to make that call about his competence & coaching ability.
coach: that call stunk blue
ump: this is your only warning, one more word and you're out
now any child knows not to say anything else, right? but 2 innings later:
coach: that call stunk blue
ump: I warned you, to the parking lot
Or this: 3rd game of a back-to-back-to-back, 2nd game went 1:50, ump is yelling for the card, you're trying to hurry, but Abby wears 2 on Saturday & 6 on Sunday, Becky and Carly decided to switch jerseys for the weekend, Darla hurt her pinkie, Ellie has jr high basketball, but will be here in the 4th inning, who to pitch, who to catch, EP/DP/AP/flex? There are many things occupying a coach's mind, before and during every game.
A coach that has never made a lineup mistake or let himself get flustered during a game must be, at least, God-like. If you are a parent....let's just say it is so easy to sit in judgement from the keyboard on Monday.
I'm sure he wants to put it behind him, so I won't say any more on it. Ultimately only his parents need to make that call about his competence & coaching ability.
- morgan
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 11:25 am
Thanks coach for getting the scoop and as you said...it happens...coaches make mistakes and things get side tracked...
Smiley did a great job of posting and getting the ruling...
Ironically the whole thing was started by a poster who thought it was " a huge ordeal"...
I don't think anyone else thought that....
Smiley did a great job of posting and getting the ruling...
Ironically the whole thing was started by a poster who thought it was " a huge ordeal"...
I don't think anyone else thought that....
- THE MAD-DOG99
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:07 am
Wrong.
The Jaguars had TWO outfielders playing (left and right) who didn't bat at all - NOT the ONE you claim (nice try though). TWO different batters batted for them as listed on the lineup card. They already used the DP/Flex for another position - I think pitcher.
Should the coach be ejected? Tricky, I would have benched at least two players instead for not being reported as subs and let the ASA guys decide on a suspension for the coach later if the other team asks for it.
The Jaguars had TWO outfielders playing (left and right) who didn't bat at all - NOT the ONE you claim (nice try though). TWO different batters batted for them as listed on the lineup card. They already used the DP/Flex for another position - I think pitcher.
Should the coach be ejected? Tricky, I would have benched at least two players instead for not being reported as subs and let the ASA guys decide on a suspension for the coach later if the other team asks for it.
- hamlet17
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:07 pm
I actually never stated that I thought it was a "huge deal"... I am the one who originally posted about it. I just found it a little fishy that after being warned about it, that coach went ahead and did the same thing again. It could have been a mistake but it should have never been repeated. The coach should become a little more educated before he starts to do complicated lineups. I agree that the whole DP/Flex thing is hard to understand. Just don't use it until you fully understand it.
As far as the Jag parents go, they shouldn't yell at the other team to "just let the girls play" and to "stop wasting time" when it was their coach that was causing the problem in the first place.
As far as the Jag parents go, they shouldn't yell at the other team to "just let the girls play" and to "stop wasting time" when it was their coach that was causing the problem in the first place.
No blood.....No bone.....No tears. Suck it up!!!
-
sftblljunkie - Posts: 25
- Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:46 am
sftblljunkie wrote:I actually never stated that I thought it was a "huge deal"... I am the one who originally posted about it. I just found it a little fishy that after being warned about it, that coach went ahead and did the same thing again. It could have been a mistake but it should have never been repeated. The coach should become a little more educated before he starts to do complicated lineups. I agree that the whole DP/Flex thing is hard to understand. Just don't use it until you fully understand it.
As far as the Jag parents go, they shouldn't yell at the other team to "just let the girls play" and to "stop wasting time" when it was their coach that was causing the problem in the first place.
Sorry Junkie,
I was referring more to Hamlet above that went on about the situation and then stated that
" if you didn't hear about it, you must not know whats going on locally " to paraphrase...
In defense of Hamlet, yes If I was the other team I would have been upset and been vocal to the coach and blue also. With the Jag parents in mind..of course they are going to say
" just let them play" . As I said before it is giving some bench player an opportunity to hit or play outfield...
Bottom line...IMO.. and as I stated before...if a coach did this on purpose and he has fielders that can't hit and hitters that can't field...?
Not to much for any other team to worry about....?
If it was done on accident...?
Same thing....
- THE MAD-DOG99
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:07 am
Honestly the DP/Flex is a great rule if you know how to use it. However, it can be very confusing and frustrating if you do not understand it. Many coaches/parents think that the DP and the Flex are tied to each other.
• Will the DP hit for the Flex – Yes
• Will the Flex play defense only – Yes
You may enter your flex in to hit in the DP spot if you wish and this will drop your line up from 10 to 9. However, you may also reenter the DP (going back to 10 instead of 9) and your flex will now be back on defense only.
*it can be the same DP or a Sub
*it can be the same flex or a Sub
DP/FLEX PLAYERS ARE TREATED THE SAME AS OTHERS AS FAR AS SUBTIUTION GOES. THEY AND REENTER THE GAME ONCE.
Now here is where I personally like the rule. Remember the DP and the Flex can play defense together but NOT hit together. Make sense?? Say you have your line up with DP in the #3 hole and of course your flex goes at the #10 hole (defense only right) and your catcher is a lefty in the #2 hole. For example your DP is a catcher (sitting the bench hitting only at this point) and your current catcher that in is the #2 hole needs a rest on her legs for what ever reason. You can sub you DP in to play defense as the catcher (or where ever you want) and that player will now be on the bench but she will still hit in the same spot. Make sense?? She is now the DP.
They are other situations you can use the rule. Once you understand it you love it and the umpire will not understand it. LOL
It’s easy to sit on the sideline saying why did he did that or this or how come he don’t do this… Most of us have done it one time or another. However, the coaches are just like the players. They will make errors and learn from them. (Hopefully) If they don’t then you have room to talk. 1st give them time a chance to learn from the mistake 2nd talk to them to face to face and not behind their back.
gOoDaY?
• Will the DP hit for the Flex – Yes
• Will the Flex play defense only – Yes
You may enter your flex in to hit in the DP spot if you wish and this will drop your line up from 10 to 9. However, you may also reenter the DP (going back to 10 instead of 9) and your flex will now be back on defense only.
*it can be the same DP or a Sub
*it can be the same flex or a Sub
DP/FLEX PLAYERS ARE TREATED THE SAME AS OTHERS AS FAR AS SUBTIUTION GOES. THEY AND REENTER THE GAME ONCE.
Now here is where I personally like the rule. Remember the DP and the Flex can play defense together but NOT hit together. Make sense?? Say you have your line up with DP in the #3 hole and of course your flex goes at the #10 hole (defense only right) and your catcher is a lefty in the #2 hole. For example your DP is a catcher (sitting the bench hitting only at this point) and your current catcher that in is the #2 hole needs a rest on her legs for what ever reason. You can sub you DP in to play defense as the catcher (or where ever you want) and that player will now be on the bench but she will still hit in the same spot. Make sense?? She is now the DP.
They are other situations you can use the rule. Once you understand it you love it and the umpire will not understand it. LOL
It’s easy to sit on the sideline saying why did he did that or this or how come he don’t do this… Most of us have done it one time or another. However, the coaches are just like the players. They will make errors and learn from them. (Hopefully) If they don’t then you have room to talk. 1st give them time a chance to learn from the mistake 2nd talk to them to face to face and not behind their back.
gOoDaY?
- Dangerous
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:07 am
That is a great explanation of the flex/DP rule, which certainly is confusing. (Of course, there are some folks who apparantly were there and who say the coach had multiple fielders who were not hitting.) But to me, that at most is the explanation for the first substitution violation. Coach's mistake, learn from it, no big deal at all. My bigger problem is that if the ump warned the coach that what he was doing was wrong AND that the coach must announce all substitutions, and the coach didn't do it, then it is no longer just a mistake understanding the flex/DP rule. I have coached both softball and baseball (but not at this level), and whether I understand a technical rule or not, once an ump tells me to do something I do it.
- Smiley
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:33 am
Okay, I am done with this topic. I have no reason to believe the Jaguars' coach is a bad guy or did anything to "cheat." My main curiosity was with the ejection, which didn't seem quite right.
If anyone is interested in a great analysis and advice on how to handle the situation as the opposition, check out Jalamander's post in the Umpiring forum.
Merry Christmas
If anyone is interested in a great analysis and advice on how to handle the situation as the opposition, check out Jalamander's post in the Umpiring forum.
Merry Christmas
- Smiley
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:33 am
11 posts
• Page 1 of 2 • 1, 2
Main Menu
User Menu
Login
