1 out Caught fly ball, runners at 1st and 3rd base

[Patrick]

You can only have a force out when a runner is forced to vacate a base because the batter has become a batter-runner.
We don't have that in this case. We have a case of a live ball appeal on a runner leaving a base before a caught fly ball is first touched.

[SnocatzDad]

What's hard to grasp is that although a force out and live ball appeal seem to be very similar they are different types of outs.

It is only a force if the ball arrives at a bag ahead of a runner being "forced" forward to that bag. Even though a live ball appeal looks like a force because the only requirement is that the ball beat the runner to the bag to get the out, the key is that the runner was not "forced" forward they left the bag early and are liable to be put out unless they can retreat in time.

That may seem semantically trivial but it is key in understanding whether the run scores or not. Since a live ball appeal is similar to a tag of a runner between bases what matters is whether the run crosses the plate prior to the appeal/tag. If it does then the run scores.

[fosterspoint]

Thanks for the clarification.

I always called it a force out, so the girls learn that they don't have to tag the runner. But its not exactly the same.

[nohesitation]

Another way to look at it is once the ball is caught on the fly all force plays are removed. So if the runner passes home before the ball reaches first for the third out, the run scores.

[Bretman]

I read and post on at least a half dozen different baseball and softball discussion boards. This exact same question has come up probably more often than any other single question about any specific rule. If I had to guess, I'd say that I've seen this one pop up about twenty times just this season alone! Adding to that, it came up three or four times this year during games I umpired. I even got asked about this play twice this year by a coach or parent as I was walking through the parking lot after a game!

I guess what I'm trying to say is that this being a "force out"- as a "force out" is described by the rule book definition- is a commonly held belief. And it is also a belief that is wrong!

You already got the right answer. This is not a force out, but rather it is an appeal play on a runner leaving base early on a caught fly ball. I think that they get confused because, on the surface, they look about the same, with a fielder recording an out by simply touching a base while holding the ball.

An appeal play walks like a duck and it talks like a duck...but it is a completely different animal than a force play!

Does the run count?

When the third out of a half inning is an appeal for a runner leaving early on a catch, any runs that crossed the plate BEFORE the appeal count.

When the third out of a half inning is an appeal for a runner leaving early on a catch, any runs that crossed the plate AFTER the appeal do not count.

[wadeintothem]

I was asked this exact scenario at Louis Park this weekend by 3 or 4 different coaches (I was UIC).

Was this situation at Louis Park?

Not a single coach I explained it to could accept this is an appeal play and a timing play and not a force or "continuation play".

I am very pleased the umpires on the field got it correct, especially since it was a point of discussion on our internal message board.

[fosterspoint]

Wade,

This was at a Georgia tournament at Sawnee Mtn Park.

The umps got it right, the coaches accepted their call, so there was no controversy during the game.