Cheating?

[GIMNEPIWO]

Thanks. Based on the prior post it seemed like a team could have nine girls bat and a different nine in the field, which doesn't seem right. Maybe I misused the term "lineup." I think the coach had 12 girls listed on the lineup card, but designated nine as hitting, with them all assigned fielding positions. Then rather than send out all nine listed hitters to the field, he sends out the 3 non-hitters (who I guess are good fielders but poor hitters). We were not involved in the game (or even the tournament) but have had a discussion about it on the AZ board and no umps have given us any insight.

This is often done in NSA play with free substitutions ... As long as the gals are on the lineup card, they go in and out defensively without being reported ... until they bat.

EDIT: Actually, I did not work any NSA games all year and can't find my book at the moment ... So I'm not sure whether this is an NSA Rule or the tournament rules under which we have been playing ...

[Jalamander]

Thanks. I think I understand.

Smiley. It all boils down to knowing the rules and thus, knowing your options.
Ice_67 noted ASA rule 4.6.c. This is the unreported substitute rule. If you understand the rule, you can really make it difficult for the opposing team.

Coach turns in lineup with 9 hitters and their positions. Then the coach sends three players who are not in the lineup out to the field, but keeps batting the original lineup.
If those three have not been reported to the umpire, you have three unreported defensive substitutes. Rules 4.6.c.7, 8 and 9 apply.

Rule 4.6.c.7 – An unreported substitute on defense is protested by the offense BEFORE a pitch, legal or illegal: EFFECT: No penalty. Replace with the correct player or enter them as a legal substitute.
This may not be to your advantage, but it does force the defensive coach to do something he probably didn’t want to do. He has to put the 3 starters onto the field, or, he has to make the 3 illegal subs legal. Make them legal means they now are in the lineup and must bat in the starter’s position in the batting order. If he wants his 3 starters to bat, that's another substitution. How many times can a starter re-enter? A sub re-enter? He won't be doing this very often.

Rule 4.6.c.8 – An unreported substitute on defense MAKES A PLAY and is protested:
a. BEFORE the next pitch, legal or illegal,
b. before the defense has left the field, and
c. before the umpires have left the field of play;
EFFECT: The unreported substitute is disqualified and the offensive team has the option to:
a. Take the result of the play
b. Have the last batter return to bat and assume the ball and strike count. All runners return to the last base occupied prior to the play.
Do you see the advantage to waiting until the defense player makes a play? "Blue. Nbr 6 in right field, who just made that play. I don't see her in the lineup. Is she legal? I don't recall a substitution being made." "You're right coach. She's disqualified." And....She sits on the bench the rest of the game.

Rule 4.6.c.9 – An reported substitute on defense is protested AFTER a pitch, legal or illegal, to the next batter;
EFFECT: The unreported substitute is disqualified and all play stands.
Same advantage as rule 8. She sits on the bench the rest of the game. Or, in this case, all 3 sit the rest of the game. "Oh, by the way, Blue. The left fielder and center fielder..I don't see them in the lineup either. Are they legal?" "Whoa, coach. Good eye. You got a threefer. Both of them are disqualified also."

Bottom line. Know your rules and options. Know the opposing team’s lineup and check it every time they step on the field.

[Smiley]

Now that is a most excellent explanation (and great advice). Thanks.

[wadeintothem]

We should change the name of this forum to coaches corner and jalamander can teach all you all the every irratating thing coaches can do to irritate umpires.

The coaches who notice themselves/designate a line up watcher and wait til the players makes a play to bring it up.. they are around the top o the list.

(admittedly usually the better coaches)

[GIMNEPIWO]

We should change the name of this forum to coaches corner and jalamander can teach all you all the every irratating thing coaches can do to irritate umpires.

The coaches who notice themselves/designate a line up watcher and wait til the players makes a play to bring it up.. they are around the top o the list.

(admittedly usually the better coaches)

I can still see George Brett going balistic after the pine tar incident ...

[callegacy]

IF YOUR NOT CHEATING YOUR NOT TRYING !

[MTR]

Smiley. It all boils down to knowing the rules and thus, knowing your options.
Ice_67 noted ASA rule 4.6.c. This is the unreported substitute rule. If you understand the rule, you can really make it difficult for the opposing team.

Coach turns in lineup with 9 hitters and their positions. Then the coach sends three players who are not in the lineup out to the field, but keeps batting the original lineup.
If those three have not been reported to the umpire, you have three unreported defensive substitutes. Rules 4.6.c.7, 8 and 9 apply.

Rule 4.6.c.7 – An unreported substitute on defense is protested by the offense BEFORE a pitch, legal or illegal: EFFECT: No penalty. Replace with the correct player or enter them as a legal substitute.
This may not be to your advantage, but it does force the defensive coach to do something he probably didn’t want to do. He has to put the 3 starters onto the field, or, he has to make the 3 illegal subs legal. Make them legal means they now are in the lineup and must bat in the starter’s position in the batting order. If he wants his 3 starters to bat, that's another substitution. How many times can a starter re-enter? A sub re-enter? He won't be doing this very often.

Just to make sure we get this straight. When caught prior to a pitch, you can put in the correct players. This is not a substitution since it is not considered a violation (4.6.C.2.Effect).

Rule 4.6.c.8 – An unreported substitute on defense MAKES A PLAY and is protested:
a. BEFORE the next pitch, legal or illegal,
b. before the defense has left the field, and
c. before the umpires have left the field of play;
EFFECT: The unreported substitute is disqualified and the offensive team has the option to:
a. Take the result of the play
b. Have the last batter return to bat and assume the ball and strike count. All runners return to the last base occupied prior to the play.
Do you see the advantage to waiting until the defense player makes a play? "Blue. Nbr 6 in right field, who just made that play. I don't see her in the lineup. Is she legal? I don't recall a substitution being made." "You're right coach. She's disqualified." And....She sits on the bench the rest of the game.

Rule 4.6.c.9 – An reported substitute on defense is protested AFTER a pitch, legal or illegal, to the next batter;
EFFECT: The unreported substitute is disqualified and all play stands.
Same advantage as rule 8. She sits on the bench the rest of the game. Or, in this case, all 3 sit the rest of the game. "Oh, by the way, Blue. The left fielder and center fielder..I don't see them in the lineup either. Are they legal?" "Whoa, coach. Good eye. You got a threefer. Both of them are disqualified also."

Bottom line. Know your rules and options. Know the opposing team’s lineup and check it every time they step on the field.

Players are no longer DQ'd for an unreported substitute violation. However, according to 4.6.C.2, it is not possible for there do be an US on defense.

[Bretman]

Jalamander, we'd all chip in and buy you a 2009 rule book, but it probably wouldn't get here until 2010.

[MTR]

Jalamander, we'd all chip in and buy you a 2009 rule book, but it probably wouldn't get here until 2010.

Nah, there's another change this year, so it would be out of date by the time he got it.

[Joe]

;) IF YOUR NOT CHEATING YOUR NOT TRYING !

I'll let my DD know that before her next final exam...