Making an attempt??

[pbj2000]

How do you argue a blue when they don't know the rule? Not judgement. My player made a "fake" attempt at 2nd base, 2nd base runner stepped off and blue called her out per lookback. Good for me, but other coach came out and argued it, blue still rung her up. I knew she wasn't out, but it's my job to put our team in a winning situation...in case we ever run into this blue again do I point him to heybucket?

haha

[MTR]

How do you argue a blue when they don't know the rule? Not judgement. My player made a "fake" attempt at 2nd base, 2nd base runner stepped off and blue called her out per lookback. Good for me, but other coach came out and argued it, blue still rung her up. I knew she wasn't out, but it's my job to put our team in a winning situation...in case we ever run into this blue again do I point him to heybucket?

haha

Here, let me complicate things. Speaking ASA, a "play", by definition, is an attempt by a defensive player to retire an offensive player. If you want to be technical, the defender cannot retire an offensive player already on the base. Therefore, by definition, the pitcher cannot make a play on the runner on the base.

Don't get me wrong, I probably wouldn't call the runner out in this situation. Just saying.....

[GIMNEPIWO]

How do you argue a blue when they don't know the rule? Not judgement. My player made a "fake" attempt at 2nd base, 2nd base runner stepped off and blue called her out per lookback. Good for me, but other coach came out and argued it, blue still rung her up. I knew she wasn't out, but it's my job to put our team in a winning situation...in case we ever run into this blue again do I point him to heybucket?

haha

Here, let me complicate things. Speaking ASA, a "play", by definition, is an attempt by a defensive player to retire an offensive player. If you want to be technical, the defender cannot retire an offensive player already on the base. Therefore, by definition, the pitcher cannot make a play on the runner on the base.

Don't get me wrong, I probably wouldn't call the runner out in this situation. Just saying.....

HHMMM? I don't know ... I had some JV Players this year that 'attempted' to hit balls that were already in the catchers mitt ... The word 'attempt' does not indicate that it is 'likely' or even 'possible' ....

[dcoach52]

I always teach my kids to watch the runner with ball in hand, but keep hands hanging down and act like you're just watching, the batter has to make the decision then you can throw if you have to. I've had umps say LBR is off because pitcher was walking toward the runner, her hand was up, she wasn't close enough to the rubber(no circle)and probably more I can't remember.

[broadband]

How do you argue a blue when they don't know the rule? Not judgement. My player made a "fake" attempt at 2nd base, 2nd base runner stepped off and blue called her out per lookback. Good for me, but other coach came out and argued it, blue still rung her up. I knew she wasn't out, but it's my job to put our team in a winning situation...in case we ever run into this blue again do I point him to heybucket?

haha

Here, let me complicate things. Speaking ASA, a "play", by definition, is an attempt by a defensive player to retire an offensive player. If you want to be technical, the defender cannot retire an offensive player already on the base. Therefore, by definition, the pitcher cannot make a play on the runner on the base.

Don't get me wrong, I probably wouldn't call the runner out in this situation. Just saying.....

I agree.
ASA Rule 8-T-EXCEPTION: The runner will not be declared out if
1. A play is made on any runner. A fake throw is considered a play.

Reading this rule in black and white and not reading anything additional into the rule, it would only apply when a fake throw is performed. So a girl just raising her arm up to me is not considered a fake throw, and if the OP were to leave the bag at that point, she would be out. Once the DP(pitcher) were to actually 'fake'/attempt a throw, then the LB rule goes into effect, and the runner is then protected by the rule.

[softballdadcoach]

How do you argue a blue when they don't know the rule? Not judgement. My player made a "fake" attempt at 2nd base, 2nd base runner stepped off and blue called her out per lookback. Good for me, but other coach came out and argued it, blue still rung her up. I knew she wasn't out, but it's my job to put our team in a winning situation...in case we ever run into this blue again do I point him to heybucket?

haha

Here, let me complicate things. Speaking ASA, a "play", by definition, is an attempt by a defensive player to retire an offensive player. If you want to be technical, the defender cannot retire an offensive player already on the base. Therefore, by definition, the pitcher cannot make a play on the runner on the base.

Don't get me wrong, I probably wouldn't call the runner out in this situation. Just saying.....

I agree.
ASA Rule 8-T-EXCEPTION: The runner will not be declared out if
1. A play is made on any runner. A fake throw is considered a play.

Reading this rule in black and white and not reading anything additional into the rule, it would only apply when a fake throw is performed. So a girl just raising her arm up to me is not considered a fake throw, and if the OP were to leave the bag at that point, she would be out. Once the DP(pitcher) were to actually 'fake'/attempt a throw, then the LB rule goes into effect, and the runner is then protected by the rule.

A girl raising her arm up may not be a 'fake throw', but is almost certainly going to be considered a 'play'. In that case, raising an arm satisfies the rule and protects the runner from being called 'out' because a 'fake throw' is not the only possible 'play'. IMO.

[PDad]

ASA Rule 8-T-EXCEPTION: The runner will not be declared out if
1. A play is made on any runner. A fake throw is considered a play.

Reading this rule in black and white and not reading anything additional into the rule, it would only apply when a fake throw is performed. So a girl just raising her arm up to me is not considered a fake throw, and if the OP were to leave the bag at that point, she would be out. Once the DP(pitcher) were to actually 'fake'/attempt a throw, then the LB rule goes into effect, and the runner is then protected by the rule.

Bretman made an excellent post on "making a play" 4 months ago.

ASA Rules Supplement 34
J. While in the circle and in possession of the ball, any act by the pitcher that, in the umpire's judgement, causes the runner to react is considered making a play.

An umpire shouldn't get too liberal in his judgment on this one. I think that the point of the Rules Supplement is to clarify the idea that faking a play is equivilant to actually making a play. And remember: Rules Supplements are not actual playing rules. They are intended to clarify, illustrate or emphasize the playing rules, not supplant them.

Any act by the pitcher?

Suppose the pitcher blinks twice and the runner reacts to that. Would that then be considered as "making a play"? I hope not!

What if the pitcher stands like a statue, facing home plate, with her arms at her sides and turns her head to look at the runner? I don't think that too many umpires would judge that as "making a play".

How about if the pitcher turns toward the runner and takes a step or two toward her, giving the impression that she will exit the circle to attempt a tag. It could be reasonable to judge that as "making a play".

There is the usual act that we are all familiar with, where the pitcher raises her arm as if to make a throw. We would probably get universal agreement that is always considered as "making a play".

Of course, there is an actual throw by the pitcher, which should always be interpreted as "making a play".

You can see that there might be a broad range of actions by the pitcher between the two extremes. The best way I've had this explained to me is for the umpire to judge if the action by the pitcher could reasonably lead a runner to believe that a put out attempt is imminent.

[broadband]

How do you argue a blue when they don't know the rule? Not judgement. My player made a "fake" attempt at 2nd base, 2nd base runner stepped off and blue called her out per lookback. Good for me, but other coach came out and argued it, blue still rung her up. I knew she wasn't out, but it's my job to put our team in a winning situation...in case we ever run into this blue again do I point him to heybucket?

haha

Here, let me complicate things. Speaking ASA, a "play", by definition, is an attempt by a defensive player to retire an offensive player. If you want to be technical, the defender cannot retire an offensive player already on the base. Therefore, by definition, the pitcher cannot make a play on the runner on the base.

Don't get me wrong, I probably wouldn't call the runner out in this situation. Just saying.....

I agree.
ASA Rule 8-T-EXCEPTION: The runner will not be declared out if
1. A play is made on any runner. A fake throw is considered a play.

Reading this rule in black and white and not reading anything additional into the rule, it would only apply when a fake throw is performed. So a girl just raising her arm up to me is not considered a fake throw, and if the OP were to leave the bag at that point, she would be out. Once the DP(pitcher) were to actually 'fake'/attempt a throw, then the LB rule goes into effect, and the runner is then protected by the rule.

A girl raising her arm up may not be a 'fake throw', but is almost certainly going to be considered a 'play'. In that case, raising an arm satisfies the rule and protects the runner from being called 'out' because a 'fake throw' is not the only possible 'play'. IMO.

I disagree. If the player raises her arm, but in my judgment does not begin/attempt to throw the ball, there is nothing. Raising the arm is interpretive of a attempted play. What if she stretches, does that count too? There has to be something substantial that the ball is moving toward where a play can be made in my judgment.

[Bretman]

I disagree. If the player raises her arm, but in my judgment does not begin/attempt to throw the ball, there is nothing. Raising the arm is interpretive of a attempted play.

Either you contradicted yourself in those last two sentences or you left a word out somewhere.

Personally, it's hard to for me to disagree with another umpire's judgment. The rule's the rule, it is what it is, and there's no debating that. But how an individual umpire might apply his own judgment is a variable that can change from person-to-person.

The Rules Supplement for the Look Back says: Any act by the pitcher that, in the umpire's judgment, causes the runner to react is considered making a play.

So...the pitcher draws her arm up and back behind her head- into the position where a throw is normally made from- but since the arm never moved forward, "toward the runner", you would not consider that "making/faking a play"?

Saying that "the ball must be moving toward where a play can be made" is your own personal interpretation/judgment that isn't in any written guideline or requirement of the rule. That may be your own judgment, but I think that you would be in a very tiny minority with that interpretation.

[Missinit]

I would think that any move the pitcher makes to intentionally get a runner to flinch, INCLUDING quickly turning and looking at a runner in an attempt to get the runner to dive back to the bag, could be considered an attempt at a play. Wouldn't the judgment part be about weather the pitcher tried to get the runner to react (flinch) regardless of the move she made to do it including a fast head turn or a quick step in the runners direction?