Question on safety bag

[UmpSteve]

If an errant throw from fair territory draws the defensive player off (BOTH bags) and completely in to foul territory, the defense may then use the nearer bag in return to the base. If the errant throw simply takes the defense to the wrong bag, the defense is simply off the base.

Is this really the way ASA 8.2.M.5 works? I thought the defense could use the safety bag whenever the throw takes them to foul territory.

Yes, case play ruling clarifies that interpretation.

Being primarily intended as a safety base, once in foul territory the first baseman shouldn't then have to cross over the runner to get back to the white bag; but, philosophically, the defense just shouldn't be rewarded by a double sized base being available on an errant throw. So being drawn off to the wrong bag is simply drawn off; being pulled competely off both allows the (now) closer bag for safety.

[MTR]

If an errant throw from fair territory draws the defensive player off (BOTH bags) and completely in to foul territory, the defense may then use the nearer bag in return to the base. If the errant throw simply takes the defense to the wrong bag, the defense is simply off the base.

Is this really the way ASA 8.2.M.5 works? I thought the defense could use the safety bag whenever the throw takes them to foul territory.

Pretty sure I covered this......let's see...

If there is a play on the BR at 1B, from fair side of the 1BL, the runner must use the colored portion of 1B. If the play is coming from foul territory on the 1B side, the runner may use either base.

Yeah....there it is....of course, if your question is that they need the orange base to remain in contact and catch the ball, that would be wrong and defeat the purpose of the base's existence. The play must come from the foul side, not just step into foul territory to get use of the base.

[PDad]

If an errant throw from fair territory draws the defensive player off (BOTH bags) and completely in to foul territory, the defense may then use the nearer bag in return to the base. If the errant throw simply takes the defense to the wrong bag, the defense is simply off the base.

Is this really the way ASA 8.2.M.5 works? I thought the defense could use the safety bag whenever the throw takes them to foul territory.

Yes, case play ruling clarifies that interpretation.

Being primarily intended as a safety base, once in foul territory the first baseman shouldn't then have to cross over the runner to get back to the white bag; but, philosophically, the defense just shouldn't be rewarded by a double sized base being available on an errant throw. So being drawn off to the wrong bag is simply drawn off; being pulled competely off both allows the (now) closer bag for safety.

The rule in question uses the term foul ground instead of foul territory. Is that significant - i.e. excludes the contrasting color (e.g. orange) portion of the base?

[UmpSteve]

If an errant throw from fair territory draws the defensive player off (BOTH bags) and completely in to foul territory, the defense may then use the nearer bag in return to the base. If the errant throw simply takes the defense to the wrong bag, the defense is simply off the base.

Is this really the way ASA 8.2.M.5 works? I thought the defense could use the safety bag whenever the throw takes them to foul territory.

Yes, case play ruling clarifies that interpretation.

Being primarily intended as a safety base, once in foul territory the first baseman shouldn't then have to cross over the runner to get back to the white bag; but, philosophically, the defense just shouldn't be rewarded by a double sized base being available on an errant throw. So being drawn off to the wrong bag is simply drawn off; being pulled competely off both allows the (now) closer bag for safety.

The rule in question uses the term foul ground instead of foul territory. Is that significant - i.e. excludes the contrasting color (e.g. orange) portion of the base?

To be honest, while that is accurate, I would BET THE HOUSE that it is a coincidence, not intended to be that specific.

[MTR]

What I was taught and what I teach the girls I coach is: ball hit in the IF, use orange bag, a ball hit through or to grass, use white bag. I think when you look at it like that, it simplifies it.

I'm sure someone will criticize my opinion but I'm good with it.

The only problem is that if a play is made at 1B from the OF, the BR is required to use the colored portion of the base.

[MTR]

The rule in question uses the term foul ground instead of foul territory. Is that significant - i.e. excludes the contrasting color (e.g. orange) portion of the base?

What is your point?

[MTR]

Ya but it's a shallow hit ball to RF and it's bang bang. The BR is looking right at it and knows where the 1st baseman is, RF'er and can clearly see the tradrectery of the ball thrown by the RF'er thus taking out all the guess work Thais involved when the ball is coming from the left side of the IF. About 18 different things can happen any time the ball is hit.

Don't think it is that simple. Rule states if there is a play made at 1B by the defense, the BR must use the colored portion. No mention of how close it may be or from where the throw is coming.

[Bretman]

By definition, "A play" is an attempt by a defensive player to retire an offensive player. And remember, the safety base rules only apply to an "initial play" at first base. If that's what this throw was, then the batter-runner could be called out for missing first base- on appeal and before she returns and touches any portion of first base, that is.

If the B/R had already rounded the bag, then the throw came in after she already had, that wouldn't be the "initial play" with respect to the safety base rules.

[MTR]

Mike,
WRT this aspect of the discussion say a ball is hit to the right side of the OF. BR touches white bag as she rounds the bag and the throw comes in to 1B from the outdfield. Could the player be called out for not contacting the orange part of the bag?
What constitutes a play at 1B in that situation?

Once the BR touches 1B, s/he is no longer a BR and, by rule, a runner can use any portion of the base.

As noted, a play subsequent to the BR touching the base is not a play to retire the BR. However, a "play" isn't terminated simply because the BR beats the ball to the base.

[MTR]

"Once the BR touches 1B, s/he is no longer a BR and, by rule, a runner can use any portion of the base."

What????? Do you mean that once the base runner has reach 1st safe they are no longer required to use orangie? But I guess we all can agree that, as long as a play at 1st envolves the player that just hit the ball, the batter turned base runner must use orangie? Once the BR passes the bag and the "play of" throwing the BR out before she reaches 1st,and there is no longer an available play to make, the BR can now use either.

Huh?