Dropped 3rd

[jonriv]

Imagine if the throw went into the outfield

[MTR]

According to UIC logic then if the ball was thrown to 1st there would have been no force out. Totally wrong and baffling to me.

Well, that would be correct, it isn't a force. The play at 2nd is a force, but by definition, there can never a force out at 1B. Too easy to let go.

[Imperial SB Dad]

According to UIC logic then if the ball was thrown to 1st there would have been no force out. Totally wrong and baffling to me.

Well, that would be correct, it isn't a force. The play at 2nd is a force, but by definition, there can never a force out at 1B. Too easy to let go.

Am I wrong the runner coming from home is a force out at first??????

[GIMNEPIWO]

According to UIC logic then if the ball was thrown to 1st there would have been no force out. Totally wrong and baffling to me.

Well, that would be correct, it isn't a force. The play at 2nd is a force, but by definition, there can never a force out at 1B. Too easy to let go.

Am I wrong the runner coming from home is a force out at first??????

Before you ask that ... Take a half hour and read ' another missed base scenario ' ... The answer is covered in there ... If nothing else, you will be entertained ... But no, the out at first on a batter-runner is not considered a 'force out' ...

[clintbos]

Am I wrong the runner coming from home is a force out at first??????

No you are not wrong in saying force out at first...Technically though, It is considered a "put out". The rule book never qualifies the Batter-Runner being "Forced Out". A force out and a put out have the same effect. It is semantics is what I am saying.

Batter-Runner - A Batter-Runner is a player who has finished a turn at bat but has not yet been put out or touched first base.

You may go read or already have read the other thread that was spoken about but it really was about what constitutes a proper appeal not anything about what is a force out.

[tcannizzo]

Here we gooooooooooooo...

[UmpSteve]

Am I wrong the runner coming from home is a force out at first??????

No you are not wrong in saying force out at first...Technically though, It is considered a "put out". The rule book never qualifies the Batter-Runner being "Forced Out". A force out and a put out have the same effect. It is semantics is what I am saying.

Batter-Runner - A Batter-Runner is a player who has finished a turn at bat but has not yet been put out or touched first base.

You may go read or already have read the other thread that was spoken about but it really was about what constitutes a proper appeal not anything about what is a force out.

Clint, this is exactly why we say you just don't get it. Not sure exactly why (maybe because you are from Georgia), but I'm going to give it one more try.

Your whole problem is that you are ignoring or overlooking the absolute first generalization regarding rule books; and it stems from legal documents, too. It isn't "sematics" when a term is defined!! A defined term is EXACTLY what the definition says it is. No more, no less, and certainly NOT when the general public colloquially misrepresents it to be by common belief, misunderstanding, or general similarity. It is what it is, and nothing else.

So you have been told over and over to read the definition, and you say that doesn't matter, tell me what the difference is. OK, in the simplest terms, no play at first base meets the definition of a force play. Isn't that clear enough?? It is a timing play. Period. One where the defense isn't required to tag the runner, but THAT (not required to tag the runner) ISN'T the actual definition of a force play.

Riddle me this. If the play at first base on a batter-runner is a force play, why does the rule 5.5-B(1) specify no run can score if the batter-runner is called out prior to reaching first base OR any OTHER runner forced out "due to the batter becoming a batter-runner"? Wouldn't that be one and the same if it WERE a force play? Well, it isn't redundant, because the definition says it isn't. Not semantics, a definition.

So, not the right thread, but you are wrong in the other thread for the same reason. You want sematics to let you do what you feel the ruling should be, but an appeal play is ALSO a defined term. The umpire cannot make a decision UNLESS REQUESTED. Standing on first base after a play at first base without making some indication that you are appealing simply isn't a request; it is standing on first base with the ball. Nothing more, until you make it clear that you are requesting an appeal. Live ball, dead ball; must meet the definition in all cases.

The live ball appeal on a runner returning on a ball caught in flight doesn't require verbalization because everyone can see that there is one and only one obvious play being attempted by the defense. The offense even tells you so by attempting to return. So, fine, not verbalized. But if the runner isn't attempting to return, most umpires will ask what you are doing, or at least wait for you to say if you make that live ball appeal. (Oh yeah, not a force play, even though the put out doesn't require a tag of the runner, it is a timing play).

When one and only one obvious play, no verbalization needed to explain the request. If there can be any doubt, more than one possibility ( a) didn't the throw beat her?, b) appealing she attempted second, and/or c) appealing she missed the base), then the defense is required to REQUEST a decision. By the definition, again, not semantics.

[UmpSteve]

One more thing; I, for one, am over hearing about how you don't have a rule book. If you had registered with an ASA team as a coach, or an umpire, you would have one. But, you know what, I have plenty of the (soon to be slightly outdated) 2011 rule books available. Participant (team) version, not umpire version, so no umpire manual, but the rules and rules supplements are the same.

If you are willing to PM me your name and mailing address, I will even eat the $2.00+- postage to mail you one. If you plan to umpire where you claim, I know I will need to interact with you at some point (maybe already have with you as a parent), so I am willing to make that small investment in your education.

[MTR]

Am I wrong the runner coming from home is a force out at first??????

Well, you are, but it is not uncommon for many as the effects are relatively the same.

I will give you the answer straight from the rule books. Please note that is it always the RUNNER which is forced, not the BATTER-RUNNER and that is because the BR is not occupying a base from which to be forced by him/herself.

The rule books address the Batter-runner as a separate entity especially when it comes to scoring a run on the third out of a half-inning.

ASA
FORCE OUT: An out which may be made only when a runner loses the right to the base that the runner is occupying because the batter becomes a batter-runner, and before the batter-runner or a trailing runner has been put out.

NFHS
FORCE PLAY: A force play is a play in which a runner (or two or three runners) loses the right to the base occupied and is forced to advance because the batter becomes a batter-runner.

ISF
FORCE OUT: A force-out is an out which can be made only when a runner loses the right to the base which he is occupying because the batter becomes a batter-runner, and before the batter-runner or a succeeding runner has been put out.

NCAA
Force Out:
A putout in which an offensive player, who is being forced to advance, is either
tagged out or put out by a fielder having and maintaining possession of the ball
and touching the base to which the base runner is being forced to advance. There
cannot be a force out when the batter does not become a batter-runner, when a fly
ball is caught, or after the batter-runner or a trailing base runner has been put out.
Force Play:
A play in which the base runner loses her right to occupy a base because the batter
becomes a batter-runner, and the batter-runner or a trailing base runner has not yet
been put out. When a forced base runner, after touching the next base, retreats for
any reason toward the base she last occupied, the force play is reinstated.

[clintbos]

Imperial had a question. The question was answered correctly but the answer obviously made him more confused because no explanation was given why there is know such thing as a force out at 1B. I tried to give him an explanation he could understand without him having the knowledge that you do or access to a book. I am not going to discuss the other thread especially in another thread.

It would nice of you guys, for any person asking about a force out at 1B, that he be given an explanation such as yours why there is no such thing as a force out at 1B.

Just informing him that there is no such thing confuses him more. and I will quote MTR in a minute.