Illegal Sub or Batting Out of Order

[MTR]

From the ASA July 2009 Plays and Clarifications

[snip for brevity]

The FLEX is never "in" the batting order, so she cannot be "out of order".

True, but aren't the consequences if she reaches base similar to BOO (4.6.C.3 & 4 and EFFECT)?

Regarding the scenario you posted, are there any consequences for the player in the #1 slot? Has she burned her re-entry? Thanks.

The consequences for an Illegal Batter and Unreported Sub are defined in the rules. People keep referring to BOO when is should not be mentioned in the discussion.

Are there shortcomings in these rules? Yes, and a change is being addressed.

I do not disagree that runners should not be allowed to advance when an Illegal Batter has been discovered, but I would not constantly cast my line into Rule 7 while wading in Rule 4 as that more often than not, just add to the confusion among coaches AND umpires.

[Jalamander]

From the ASA July 2009 Plays and Clarifications

[snip for brevity]

The FLEX is never "in" the batting order, so she cannot be "out of order".

True, but aren't the consequences if she reaches base similar to BOO (4.6.C.3 & 4 and EFFECT)?

Regarding the scenario you posted, are there any consequences for the player in the #1 slot? Has she burned her re-entry? Thanks.

I agree with MTR, it’s not wise to mix BOO rules with unreported Sub rules with Illegal Player rules. That being said.
In the OP, I believe we all agree…the FLEX wrongly batting in the #1 spot, when appealed, is considered an Illegal Batter and is governed by ASA rule 4-6-E & F. If the Illegal Batter is discovered after she reaches a base, the consequences are noted in rule 4-6-F (EFFECT) which states, Any infraction of sections F2-4 is governed by the Unreported Substitute rule, Rule 4-6-A thru C(1 thru 9). So, for penalties regarding an Illegal Batter you have to treat her like she is an Unreported Substitute. Looking at Rule 4-6-C(3) the effects will be:
1) All runners return (which implies no runs may score)
2) Illegal Batter is called out and is *** disqualified
3) All other outs stand.
4) The starter in the #1 slot must then be re-entered if she is to play/bat again.
*** disqualified MTR has noted there is a rule change in 2009 where an unreported sub is no longer disqualified. However, this is still an Illegal Batter (who is disqualified), but applying the consequences as if she were an unreported sub (who is NOT disqualified). Can anyone see a conflict in the rules?

If you want to compare the above effects with a simple BOO effects: (again, not recommended, but…)
A BOO who is discovered after reaching base is governed by rule 7-2-D(2). The effects are:
1) The player who should have batted (#1 slot) is out.
2) All runners return (which implies no runs may score)
3) All other outs stand.

So, the differences are the re-entry rule and the disqualification. The disqualification may be questionable because of the rules conflicts of illegal batter vs. unreported sub.

Jalamander

[PDad]

In the OP, I believe we all agree…the FLEX wrongly batting in the #1 spot, when appealed, is considered an Illegal Batter ...

It is only an Illegal Batter if the original DP wasn't in the #1 spot. It is an Unreported Sub if the original DP was in the #1 spot.

and is governed by ASA rule 4-6-E & F. If the Illegal Batter is discovered after she reaches a base, the consequences are noted in rule 4-6-F (EFFECT) which states, Any infraction of sections F2-4 is governed by the Unreported Substitute rule, Rule 4-6-A thru C(1 thru 9). So, for penalties regarding an Illegal Batter you have to treat her like she is an Unreported Substitute. Looking at Rule 4-6-C(3) the effects will be:
1) All runners return (which implies no runs may score)

All runners will return to the last base occupied prior to the batted ball. The run that scored in the OP on a wild pitch would stand since it scored prior to the batted ball.

If you want to compare the above effects with a simple BOO effects: (again, not recommended, but…)
A BOO who is discovered after reaching base is governed by rule 7-2-D(2). The effects are:
1) The player who should have batted (#1 slot) is out.
2) All runners return (which implies no runs may score)

The BOO Effects for 7-2-D(2) don't specify how runners are returned like 4-6-C(3). It was suggested to me that CBP 7.2-7 indicates that the run that scored on a wild pitch in the OP would also stand with a BOO because the BOO "did not assist nor advance R1." "The advance was made on it's own merit"

[Crabby_Bob]

[EFFECT:] All runners will return to the last base occupied prior to the batted ball

And! There are at least four ways a batter can reach base without batting the ball.

The intent is clear: when she completes the at-bat, reaches base safely, and is discovered.
(edited to add:) Maybe 4.6.C.3 should read like this...

3. When discovered after completing their turn at bat and:

Also change the batted ball part.

If FLEX or unreported substitute bats, makes out, but drives in a run, I'm wanting a reset of the runners. Respectfully submitted.

[Jalamander]

It is only an Illegal Batter if the original DP wasn't in the #1 spot. It is an Unreported Sub if the original DP was in the #1 spot.

Agree.

All runners will return to the last base occupied prior to the batted ball. The run that scored in the OP on a wild pitch would stand since it scored prior to the batted ball.

The run scoring on the wild pitch is a moot point. That is handled by a different rule. We were discussing the differences "after the batter has completed his at-bat and is on base."

The BOO Effects for 7-2-D(2) don't specify how runners are returned like 4-6-C(3).

Oh? That's strange. I see: (the bold is my empahsis)
7-2-D(2) EFFECT:
a. The player who should have batted is out.
b. Any advance of runners and any run scored shall be nullified. All outs made stand.
c. the next batter is the player whose name follows that of the player called out failing to bat.
....etc.
I may be making an egregious assumption, but advancement of runners and scores being nullified tells me you return everyone to their bases at TOP...except for those runner who made an out.

It was suggested to me that CBP 7.2-7 indicates that the run that scored on a wild pitch in the OP would also stand with a BOO because the BOO "did not assist nor advance R1." "The advance was made on it's own merit"

Again, score on a wild pitch is a moot point. Different rule discussion. See above.

Now you see the problems when we discuss different rules within the same thread. Confusion will reign. It's wise not to cross rule boundaries.

Jalamander

[socalump]

Speaking ASA:

7-2-D1: If the batting out of order is discovered while the incorrect batter is at bat, the correct batter must take the batter's position and assume the balls and strikes count. Any runner advanced and runs scored while the incorrect batter was at bat shall be legal. There is no penalty whether discovered by the offense or defense while the incorrect batter is at bat.

7-2-D2: If the batting out of order is discovered after the incorrect batter has completed a turn at bat AND BEFORE a legal or illegal pitch to the following batter or before the pitcher and all infielders have vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory, the player who should have batted is out, any advance of runners and any run scored shall be nullified. All outs stand.

If you had appealed the incorrect batter after she made the 3rd out, my interpretation of the 7-2-D2 would be that the run that scored is nullified IF THE INCORRECT BATTER WAS AT THE PLATE WHEN THE RUN SCORED ON THE WILD PITCH. If the run scored before she came to bat, the run is legal.

As for the illegal sub, you could argue that the incorrect batter must now take the place of the original leadoff batter and the opposing coach is now batting 9...but I doubt the umpire would make the opposing manager do that. I think the PU would probably give the manager a warning and tell both sides that we're moving forward with the original lineups.

If the DP is not in the 1st position of the BO then the incorrect batter, (Flex) can not be entered into that position of the BO. The Flex can only bat for the DP...Concering the DP/Flex rule: Both can be on defense at the same time but CAN NOT be on offense at the same time legally....the BOO by the Flex should be enforced if brought to the attention of the PU after the turn at bat is completed and before the next legal or illegal pitch to the next batter.

[wadeintothem]

If the DP is not in the 1st position of the BO then the incorrect batter, (Flex) can not be entered into that position of the BO. The Flex can only bat for the DP...Concering the DP/Flex rule: Both can be on defense at the same time but CAN NOT be on offense at the same time legally....the BOO by the Flex should be enforced if brought to the attention of the PU after the turn at bat is completed and before the next legal or illegal pitch to the next batter.

Did you just call this situation in the OP BOO, after 3 pages of depth explanations of this rule by several umps?