Scoring Hit or Error

[hit4power]

That section is very poorly written and describes how to score FC/H when the fielder holds/checks a lead runner. It doesn't apply in this case, so you can't use it to justify scoring a hit.

Upon further review, I agree on both counts (badly worded and not applicable). Also agree if you substitute the word attempt for the word play it makes more sense.

So if you look at the entire section (8 rules) in ATEC on FC and think your way through it one section at a time, then I think the only section that possibly applies (if you take the broad definition of what is a play) is #3:

When a ball is put in play where a play is made on any lead runner and an out occurs, or an out would have occurred had no error taken place, or the runner is safe, but the batter would have been out had the initial play been made at first.

It would clearly apply if the word attempt was used in several spots instead of the word play

That means that the sitch I described above would also be FC unless in the judgement of the scorer the batter would have been safe had the initial play/attempt gone to 1B.

Thanks for educating me

[AlwaysImprove]

MLB would score the mental error as an error.

MLB does not charge errors for mental errors (see Rule 10.12(a)(1) Comment).

The official scorer shall not score mental mistakes or misjudgments as errors unless a specific rule prescribes otherwise. A fielder’s mental mistake that leads to a physical misplay—such as throwing the ball into the stands or rolling the ball to the pitcher’s mound, mistakenly believing there to be three outs, and thereby allowing a runner or runners to advance—shall not be considered a mental mistake for purposes of this rule and the official scorer shall charge a fielder committing such a mistake with an error.

If a play should have been made it is an error.

Not always. MLB does charge errors for not handling or getting to a ball that most fielders would with ordinary effort, but they do not charge errors for making a play too slowly.

Slow handling of the ball that does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error. For example, the official scorer shall not charge a fielder with an error if such fielder fields a ground ball cleanly but does not throw to first base in time to retire the batter.

Fastpitch scoring appears to reward the confused player as and penalize the aggressive diving player.

Batters may get credited with a hit when a fielder does not try hard enough, but neither the batter nor the fielder are penalized when a fielder makes an unsuccessful attempt on a play that required extraordinary effort.

o - No error is charged when a ball is misplayed that was hit so hard more than ordinary effort is needed to play the ball. If the ball goes in the pocket of the glove and then Is dropped, score an error if an out would have been made without the drop, except as noted in q.

q - No error is charged if the fielder drops a ball after running a considerable distance to catch it, or if she fails in her attempt to catch it while running at a high rate of speed.

r - No error is charged on a dropped line drive if the fielder moved more than a few steps to catch it.

My problem with the ATEC guidelines is statements like the one in note r above. So you have a moderately hit line drive three steps to the left of the short stop. Routine play, one that gets made all day and the guide seems to allow it to be declared a hit. Even worse for a line drive to the outfield. Girls are routinely running down 6-10 steps on even the hardest hit balls.

To me the guide should be more. If you think the play was routine, and it did not get made, score it an error. If you think the play was taking above and beyond effort, and it hits a fielder in the glove, still score a hit.

[hit4power]

To me the guide should be more. If you think the play was routine, and it did not get made, score it an error. If you think the play was taking above and beyond effort, and it hits a fielder in the glove, still score a hit.

I agree that as I've used it over the last couple years, I find that parts of it are not well worded, and even parts that I used to think were reasonably worded could use improvement as Pdad pointed out above.
Regarding hits vs. errors, ATEC does provide an overreaching guideline of "Does the fielder deserve an error? When answering, always give benefit of doubt to the hitter". It's always going to come down to the judgement of the scorer at some point.

We got into just this debate this weekend on a moderately hard grounder hit to the right side of F4. She went a couple of steps to her right to play the ball and it skipped under her glove untouched and into RF. Hit or error? Obviously you'd have to have been be there to decide but even for 3 of us watching and keeping the scorebook, we had quite a discussion as we did not initially agree on the call.

[dodgerblue]

Who's really going to give a shit how you score it? Is it going into the softball hall of fame? Hit, error or mental error is it really that serious? My answer when I hear idiots say that was an error that was an FC is (she's on base right)

[sftblldud]

Who's really going to give a shit how you score it? Is it going into the softball hall of fame? Hit, error or mental error is it really that serious? My answer when I hear idiots say that was an error that was an FC is (she's on base right)

Who you calling IDIOT

[PDad]

o - No error is charged when a ball is misplayed that was hit so hard more than ordinary effort is needed to play the ball. If the ball goes in the pocket of the glove and then Is dropped, score an error if an out would have been made without the drop, except as noted in q.

q - No error is charged if the fielder drops a ball after running a considerable distance to catch it, or if she fails in her attempt to catch it while running at a high rate of speed.

r - No error is charged on a dropped line drive if the fielder moved more than a few steps to catch it.

My problem with the ATEC guidelines is statements like the one in note r above. So you have a moderately hit line drive three steps to the left of the short stop. Routine play, one that gets made all day and the guide seems to allow it to be declared a hit. Even worse for a line drive to the outfield. Girls are routinely running down 6-10 steps on even the hardest hit balls.

To me the guide should be more. If you think the play was routine, and it did not get made, score it an error. If you think the play was taking above and beyond effort, and it hits a fielder in the glove, still score a hit.

ATEC's use of the term line drive is probably more restrictive than yours and there isn't time for a fielder to make a routine play by moving 4+ steps (MORE than a few). The ASA definition of a line drive is a batted ball that travels parallel or near the ground through most of it's flight.

ATEC's guidelines provide examples of what to consider when judging routine plays and they shouldn't be applied in absolute terms (i.e. # steps) across the board. I like baseball's definition of ordinary effort because it provides flexibility according to the level of play. For example, you don't use the same standard for 8u rec, 14u travel and 18 Gold.

ORDINARY EFFORT is the effort that a fielder of average skill at a position in that league or classification of leagues should exhibit on a play, with due consideration given to the condition of the field and weather conditions.

[tcannizzo]

They actually have one girl on our team that will go running at the ball like she is going to make the play, and if it is going to be close, she will pull her glove back, so she does not get credited with the error.

This is the one of the most stupidest thing I have heard in a long time.
Great Stats, but Losers; player for doing it and coach for condoning it.

[joaquinjunior]

F C

[sftblldud]

They actually have one girl on our team that will go running at the ball like she is going to make the play, and if it is going to be close, she will pull her glove back, so she does not get credited with the error.

This is the one of the most stupidest thing I have heard in a long time.
Great Stats, but Losers; player for doing it and coach for condoning it.

I've seen this, we had a 3rd baseman on our HS team that would pull her glove back and go to the 3rd base bag as to show that she had to cover. Mother thought she was a allstar and condoned this play. My thought was that someone(probably a coach) had to teach her this.

BTW, she wound up at a JC and had no offers from any colleges. I wonder why!!! If she was doing this in HS than you know she was doing it in TB. Therefore she winds up at a JC.