ASA Umpires Needed in NorCal this Weekend

[AlwaysImprove]

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Who said they did? But apparently, from the OP, you are wrong, it does in some areas.
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You did, and guess what, you are saying it again.

In our area we used to have a lot of 32 team 14u tournaments. The number of players coming out anymore is way down. Little leagues used to have 5 teams, now they struggle to have 1. Plenty of umpires to go around, not enough teams and players.

Apparently, you need to find a third grader to explain reading comprehension to you.

The way you and others whine and cry about the umpiring, how can you say there are plenty of umpires. You obviously are not seeing them. If there are that many umpires, the good ones must be avoiding your teams.

Speaking ASA, umpire registrations are down by more than 40% over the past decade and quite a few of the good ones are retiring, many because of all the BS that is now involved with the game. I know my area loses 2-4 umpires a year for exactly that reason. Yet people keep on scheduling events and wonder why this becomes an issue.

You can believe what you like, I live it.

I never run any umps off, not even the bad ones. In fact, I am friends with all of the better umps in our area. After the end of a tournament sometimes I get to have a beer with them. We sit on the back of their 84 Tuarus.

This is even given that they know I have regularly provided feedback to ASA from a coaches perspective on what needs to be improved. There was no bigger supporter of ASA in our area than me. Most of the better umps in our area know ASA was needing changes. They also knew ASA would resist the changes. They have not been happy with the overly political nature and the power grab that some in ASA have made.

[MTR]

I never run any umps off, not even the bad ones. In fact, I am friends with all of the better umps in our area. After the end of a tournament sometimes I get to have a beer with them. We sit on the back of their 84 Tuarus.

This is even given that they know I have regularly provided feedback to ASA from a coaches perspective on what needs to be improved. There was no bigger supporter of ASA in our area than me. Most of the better umps in our area know ASA was needing changes. They also knew ASA would resist the changes. They have not been happy with the overly political nature and the power grab that some in ASA have made.

Of what changes are you referring? And, of course, you know ASA in not a person or office; Those with the most registrations have the most votes and power; And not one person who works in OKC for ASA has a vote on council; And you are also aware the other than the regional UICs, umpires do not get a vote. So, you must be referring to your local office, right?

[AlwaysImprove]

So you are making the case that SoCal has all the votes, correct? Yet it was the SoCal coaches/teams that banned together and formed PGF.

I suspect, just maybe, there was something not right at ASA.

[MTR]

So you are making the case that SoCal has all the votes, correct? Yet it was the SoCal coaches/teams that banned together and formed PGF.

No, but with Texas, Florida and Pennsylvania, they own a fair share of votes. And all the bantering about not listening to a group of coaches, again, it must be understood that ASA is not a monarchy or dictatorship. It is, probably the closest thing you will ever see to a democracy in this country, so arbitrary changes unless compelled legally or for safety purposes, are not really an option. And like SoCal, every part of the country represents their little patch of the globe and teams with the passion expected of them, so getting operating changes that affect anyone in a manner which they feel will be less than beneficial is going to be a tough sell.

Whether you like it or not, ASA is not SoCal, it is USA.

I suspect, just maybe, there was something not right at ASA.

Let me know what that is so it can be fixed.

[AlwaysImprove]

I think I have detailed what I believe ASA should have been doing for a long time.

Two years ago I went through every single ASA JO Commissioner in region 15 and region 14. I also spot sampled a number of other regions. Every JO Commissioner is active as a tournament director, all clearly came from the umpire ranks, and many are active umpires. I have posted the list here before. It is easy to build. Just go through the associations, look up the JO commissioner, then Google them and you will see all the tournaments they are running.

Teams input are not being heard at ASA, it should be no surprise that ASA ran afoul of teams. Coaches have provided that input to ASA for years. Please point out a single individual that votes at ASA that is a coach or even comes predominantly from the coaching ranks of the sport.

I have never met a team from Texas, Florida or Pennsylvania that would claim that ASA listens to their concerns. I have met teams that are ProASA, when you ask, more often than not that alliance is formed in some past NSA vs ASA, or USSSA vs ASA battle which they picked ASA as it was the better of the two. The upper level teams in most areas of the country have already moved to play PGF. Some of those upper teams are also playing ASA, but that is really just a hedged bet.

You bring a single team to this board that votes for having nationals be 12 days long in hell and cost 3x per team what it should cost. You do that and I will give up and tell you that you are correct, ASA had it right the whole time.

You bring up the returning college player issue. I agree those players should be allowed to play. I understand the point you are making. The reality of running a team where you have a group of college players that drop in out of the sky in June make it impossible to have a team that is stable. Very few of those college players came into their summer teams really wanting to compete. They often joined because they did not play much at their college, their college coach felt they should play to get better, or because that team helped them get a scholarship so they felt obligated.

Most of the time these players were burned out, felt the level of competition was way below their grade level, and not that excited about sitting in a dugout full of high school kids. Many of the HS parents were not that excited about having their HS sophomore sharing experiences with a sophomore in college. Coaches have to carry a full roster of HS kids so they can play fall and spring. Then the college kids drop in, and the hs kids no longer get to play. It was very unstable.

If you were a coach, or if ASA had any coaches in the organization, they would understand. Every single gold coach that I know that has a stable regularly competitive team was ecstatic when the no college players rolled out. The concept of having a strong 23U system to let those girls play makes a ton of sense. They can play with people at their own experience level and level of play. They can come together in June and not feel like they are displacing an entire playing team. They can choose a schedule that is way better for college kids, fewer tournament weekends, more competitive tournaments.

You should know that ASA has more problems in the future for their nationals. Teams used to put up with 12 days in hell nationals to get a chance to pay in the field of the best of best. ASA nationals is no long the best of the best, they are just also ran teams. Those teams are at some point going to wake up and realize they can go to Florida Disney Land, or Utah for the beautiful weather.

Anyway, none of this is to disparage anyone at ASA or umpires. Universally across the board every ASA person and every umpire I have met have been great guys. They love the sport and they dedicate a ton of time and effort to the sport. I just think ASA came together in a political system that worked for them in the 80's and 90's. In the late 90's things in the sport changed and that political system worked against those natural changes. I know that ASA will eventually adjust, but I also know that adjustment probably would not have happened without premier.

[UmpSteve]

I think I have detailed what I believe ASA should have been doing for a long time.

Two years ago I went through every single ASA JO Commissioner in region 15 and region 14. I also spot sampled a number of other regions. Every JO Commissioner is active as a tournament director, all clearly came from the umpire ranks, and many are active umpires. I have posted the list here before. It is easy to build. Just go through the associations, look up the JO commissioner, then Google them and you will see all the tournaments they are running.

Teams input are not being heard at ASA, it should be no surprise that ASA ran afoul of teams. Coaches have provided that input to ASA for years. Please point out a single individual that votes at ASA that is a coach or even comes predominantly from the coaching ranks of the sport.

I have never met a team from Texas, Florida or Pennsylvania that would claim that ASA listens to their concerns. I have met teams that are ProASA, when you ask, more often than not that alliance is formed in some past NSA vs ASA, or USSSA vs ASA battle which they picked ASA as it was the better of the two. The upper level teams in most areas of the country have already moved to play PGF. Some of those upper teams are also playing ASA, but that is really just a hedged bet.

You bring a single team to this board that votes for having nationals be 12 days long in hell and cost 3x per team what it should cost. You do that and I will give up and tell you that you are correct, ASA had it right the whole time.

You bring up the returning college player issue. I agree those players should be allowed to play. I understand the point you are making. The reality of running a team where you have a group of college players that drop in out of the sky in June make it impossible to have a team that is stable. Very few of those college players came into their summer teams really wanting to compete. They often joined because they did not play much at their college, their college coach felt they should play to get better, or because that team helped them get a scholarship so they felt obligated.

Most of the time these players were burned out, felt the level of competition was way below their grade level, and not that excited about sitting in a dugout full of high school kids. Many of the HS parents were not that excited about having their HS sophomore sharing experiences with a sophomore in college. Coaches have to carry a full roster of HS kids so they can play fall and spring. Then the college kids drop in, and the hs kids no longer get to play. It was very unstable.

If you were a coach, or if ASA had any coaches in the organization, they would understand. Every single gold coach that I know that has a stable regularly competitive team was ecstatic when the no college players rolled out. The concept of having a strong 23U system to let those girls play makes a ton of sense. They can play with people at their own experience level and level of play. They can come together in June and not feel like they are displacing an entire playing team. They can choose a schedule that is way better for college kids, fewer tournament weekends, more competitive tournaments.

You should know that ASA has more problems in the future for their nationals. Teams used to put up with 12 days in hell nationals to get a chance to pay in the field of the best of best. ASA nationals is no long the best of the best, they are just also ran teams. Those teams are at some point going to wake up and realize they can go to Florida Disney Land, or Utah for the beautiful weather.

Anyway, none of this is to disparage anyone at ASA or umpires. Universally across the board every ASA person and every umpire I have met have been great guys. They love the sport and they dedicate a ton of time and effort to the sport. I just think ASA came together in a political system that worked for them in the 80's and 90's. In the late 90's things in the sport changed and that political system worked against those natural changes. I know that ASA will eventually adjust, but I also know that adjustment probably would not have happened without premier.

For the record, I think you make some excellent points. While still an ASA loyalist, I resigned my voting position last year, in no small part to my frustrations with the system.

I also feel obliged to point out a few discrepancies in your post. For one, there has NEVER been a 12 day ASA National for youth players. ASA Code has never permitted any ASA National to run any longer than Sunday to Sunday; and the vast majority have played Monday to Sunday with no more than the coaches draw meeting, opening ceremonies and players party on Sunday. There used to be a Sunday evening exhibition game for the returning champion.

So that is an 8 day tournament. Even if you include a travel day before and after, that is a maximum of 10 days. Never 12. And not ALL ASA Nationals are played in hell. Absolutely true that some are; but not all. Absolutely true that some locales jack up hotel prices to cover kickbacks to the local organizers. But not all. Yours is a very sweeping generalization and indictment.

The second point I would disagree with is the characterization that all JO Commissioners are actually tournament directors. It is clearly a large number; agreed. However, there are plenty of places where the JO Commissioner (or the Commissioner) place tournaments at locations and allow the local organizations to actually run the tournament. The official contact name may well be the JO; and their involvement is certainly necessary to make sure ASA Code is followed, and certainly desired by the teams to make sure the tournament is run properly.

But, let's be clear; not all JO Commissioners are actually tournament directors as a profession, or even as an income producing sideline. Further, if that situation is an indictment of all who have a say in running a softball organization, well, you would have to include in that indictment many of those you want to have the input, who also coach; gosh, who would then be running Premier?? Just sayin ...

[UmpSteve]

Teams input are not being heard at ASA, it should be no surprise that ASA ran afoul of teams. Coaches have provided that input to ASA for years. Please point out a single individual that votes at ASA that is a coach or even comes predominantly from the coaching ranks of the sport.

Katie Kay is the JO Commissioner for Georgia ASA, and votes as the Region 4 JO Commissioner. She has never umpired a game, and got the position as a former coach. That said, the local teams and coaches have great difficulty communicating with her, as she is even more staunchly believing she has all the answers than the "umpires" you feel run the organization.

Many Commissioners are or were umpires; true. Many have never umpired; or did that only when pressed into service by the profession that a larger majority of the Commissioners share. That is Parks and Rec professionals, not umpires. Bureaucrats, by and large. As one who has been there and tilted at the windmills, take my word for it that the "umpires" are much more in tune with the game and what the teams and coaches want than you would want to believe.

[MTR]

Another observation that you (AI) may not buy, but is relatively accurate where I have looked that many umpires are more committed the the "game" for the long term. Before you jump on this, I did not say all, but there are a lot of umpires who just enjoy the sport, no matter who is playing. I do SP, FP, men, women and youth at all levels, yet I have no horse in the race other than the "game". I have played and coached and my daughter, niece and granddaughter have played, but I am in it for the game, not the teams, players, facilities, equipment manufacturers, or anyone/anything else, just the game.

Many (again, many, not all) coaches, players, parents come and go together. DD or GDD is done playing or has moved on, many of those associated also move on. Many umpires move into administrative positions just to stay near the game when they can no longer produce on the field at a top level. BTW, I believe ASA Code still forbids commissioners from umpiring any Championship Play so those commissioners still working are probably doing so to fill a spot on the field, not to advance themselves any farther then the local games.

I think you make a lot of presumptions. Not saying that what you see isn't so, just that it may not apply across the entire grid as you see it.

[AlwaysImprove]

For the record, I think you make some excellent points. While still an ASA loyalist, I resigned my voting position last year, in no small part to my frustrations with the system.

I also feel obliged to point out a few discrepancies in your post. For one, there has NEVER been a 12 day ASA National for youth players. ASA Code has never permitted any ASA National to run any longer than Sunday to Sunday; and the vast majority have played Monday to Sunday with no more than the coaches draw meeting, opening ceremonies and players party on Sunday. There used to be a Sunday evening exhibition game for the returning champion.

So that is an 8 day tournament. Even if you include a travel day before and after, that is a maximum of 10 days. Never 12. And not ALL ASA Nationals are played in hell. Absolutely true that some are; but not all. Absolutely true that some locales jack up hotel prices to cover kickbacks to the local organizers. But not all. Yours is a very sweeping generalization and indictment.

The second point I would disagree with is the characterization that all JO Commissioners are actually tournament directors. It is clearly a large number; agreed. However, there are plenty of places where the JO Commissioner (or the Commissioner) place tournaments at locations and allow the local organizations to actually run the tournament. The official contact name may well be the JO; and their involvement is certainly necessary to make sure ASA Code is followed, and certainly desired by the teams to make sure the tournament is run properly.

But, let's be clear; not all JO Commissioners are actually tournament directors as a profession, or even as an income producing sideline. Further, if that situation is an indictment of all who have a say in running a softball organization, well, you would have to include in that indictment many of those you want to have the input, who also coach; gosh, who would then be running Premier?? Just sayin ...

Ok, 10 days not 12. Agree. But it should be 5 days, not 10. Also they rear end load all the games. They know as soon as the first round of elimination games play, half the teams will leave. So they will do anything to push that out as far as possible. Now even a few hours of rain late in the tournament, and they end up cutting double elim down to single elim and take other measures that effectively wreck out the tournament. All for the almighty dollar.

As far as locations for nationals. Johnson City, Montgomery Alabama and Midland Tx routinely host the majority of national tournaments. These cities are very far from airports, have a captive hotel marketplace tied into their visitors and convention bureau and jack prices up. They also have ASA voting representatives that likely directly receive monies, or run city parks departments that receive monies from the hotels or from visitor bureau who got it from the hotel. Those hotels would sit empty if ASA did not have their nationals. Instead they are now getting $130 a night for a room that normally gets $60.

I do buy that many umpires are very committed to the game. I actually believe many of the rank and file umpires believe there are a few politicians at ASA that have learned how to game the system and are using that to take advantage. They are likely even more annoyed with it all now that it looks like the grand days of ASA nationals is coming to an end, yet those politicians are hanging on for every possible red cent.

I also 100% believe that umpires are way easier to deal with than your paid bureaucrats in parks and recs departments.

I also believe ASA would not have half the problems they currently have if there was at some point in the process input coming from teams. It does not really matter who is voting at ASA, coaches, umpires, paid bureaucratic, if they are not trying to meet the needs of the teams in the sport, they are not going to be successful.

Same goes for Premier. If premier does not listen to teams and try to meet their needs, they will find it difficult to grow/prosper. So far, what I have seen is that premier is very interested in what teams are saying. They may be a bit more focused on your top 50 in the country teams but they are very interested in those teams are saying.

MTR, I am not in SoCal you keep referring to me as if I represent a SoCal point of view, but I do not. Not in anyway shape or form.

Anyway, it seems that this argument has played out. PGF nationals are very popular. Most people now only care about who has qualified for PGF and the order of finish for PGF is the gold standard. That is true for 18gold, 16U and 14U. I suspect it will be true for 12's and 10's if it is not already.

Yet, ASA has shown no ability to make the changes that might possibly bring teams back.

[MTR]

Ok, 10 days not 12. Agree. But it should be 5 days, not 10. Also they rear end load all the games. They know as soon as the first round of elimination games play, half the teams will leave. So they will do anything to push that out as far as possible. Now even a few hours of rain late in the tournament, and they end up cutting double elim down to single elim and take other measures that effectively wreck out the tournament. All for the almighty dollar.

I agree and don't know why they do that. In my mind, it would be better to start early and finish early than start late and butt up against what could have been a leisurely travel day.

As far as locations for nationals. Johnson City, Montgomery Alabama and Midland Tx routinely host the majority of national tournaments. These cities are very far from airports, have a captive hotel marketplace tied into their visitors and convention bureau and jack prices up. They also have ASA voting representatives that likely directly receive monies, or run city parks departments that receive monies from the hotels or from visitor bureau who got it from the hotel. Those hotels would sit empty if ASA did not have their nationals. Instead they are now getting $130 a night for a room that normally gets $60.

They get nationals because they bid on nationals. You will never get a national in big city america because there is no incentive for the city to host one. BTW, it is the city, not ASA association that bid for the tournament. The association is often involved, but the only thing they usually receive as to what you are probably considering "kickbacks" are comp hotel rooms for ASA Reps, UICs and umpires. And I doubt quite seriously that hotels sit around empty for 50 weeks a year waiting on an ASA national tournament. AFA cost, ever stayed within a 100 miles of a NASCAR event? You are accusing ASA of something which is routine in the hotel industry whether it is ASA, USSSA, music festival, an NCAA bowl game, good weather at the beach, etc. This happens regardless of the event taking place, so your argument is weak on that side. Besides, you don't have to go the to hotels recommended and if someone says you do, a call to OKC would probably handle that in a heartbeat.

I also believe ASA would not have half the problems they currently have if there was at some point in the process input coming from teams. It does not really matter who is voting at ASA, coaches, umpires, paid bureaucratic, if they are not trying to meet the needs of the teams in the sport, they are not going to be successful.

You know, I have been on rating committees for umpires and more than 90% of the time, I could tell who won or lost a game without even knowing who was playing by the rating an umpire received from a coach. It is no different with the teams. It is part of nature that people are going to push for what benefits them directly regardless of how things fall or it affects others.

Like it or not, ASA's convening body is obligated to address all of softball, not just JO or those chasing the carrot and I believe it is THAT to which you are referring.

Same goes for Premier. If premier does not listen to teams and try to meet their needs, they will find it difficult to grow/prosper. So far, what I have seen is that premier is very interested in what teams are saying. They may be a bit more focused on your top 50 in the country teams but they are very interested in those teams are saying.

I have said this from the beginning. My belief is that Premier is a showcase business. Good, bad or indifferent, that seems to be their priority.

MTR, I am not in SoCal you keep referring to me as if I represent a SoCal point of view, but I do not. Not in anyway shape or form.

You are correct, I generically refer to SoCal as they are the center of the softball universe, or haven't you heard. My bad habit.

Anyway, it seems that this argument has played out. PGF nationals are very popular. Most people now only care about who has qualified for PGF and the order of finish for PGF is the gold standard. That is true for 18gold, 16U and 14U. I suspect it will be true for 12's and 10's if it is not already.

Yet, ASA has shown no ability to make the changes that might possibly bring teams back.

Again, it is a democracy that does not operate on edicts. And they do listen to the teams as much of the game of slowpitch has moved greatly over the past few years via player input. And another thing you may find hard to believe, SP pays the bills.