When is the double base "missed"???

[RocUmp]

At what point is the double base missed?
When can BR be called out immediately and when is an appeal required?

I have discussed this with several respected ASA umpires and got differing opinions.

four situations: In all cases the ball is caught by F3 while to "last step" is still on the ground or touching the base.

1 BR's last step before 1st base is short of the bag.

2 BR's last step is on the white bag

3 BR's last step is to the right of the orange bag.

4 BR's last step is past the orange bag and the base was never touched.

Here are my thougts.

1 BR can be called out immediately, the base has not been touched and has not been missed since the base has not been passed.

2 Same as 1

3 Same as 1

4 Must be appealed.

ASA 2011 Rules supplement 1 Appeals section L. When a runner passes frist base before the throw arrives, they are considered to have touched the base unless properly appealed.

The question is if BR passed first base in 1, 2 and 3. If you say yes, they must be appealed. If you say no, they can be out immediately.

[MTR]

At what point is the double base missed?
When can BR be called out immediately and when is an appeal required?

I have discussed this with several respected ASA umpires and got differing opinions.

four situations: In all cases the ball is caught by F3 while to "last step" is still on the ground or touching the base.

1 BR's last step before 1st base is short of the bag.

2 BR's last step is on the white bag

3 BR's last step is to the right of the orange bag.

4 BR's last step is past the orange bag and the base was never touched.

Here are my thougts.

1 BR can be called out immediately, the base has not been touched and has not been missed since the base has not been passed.

2 Same as 1

3 Same as 1

4 Must be appealed.

ASA 2011 Rules supplement 1 Appeals section L. When a runner passes frist base before the throw arrives, they are considered to have touched the base unless properly appealed.

The question is if BR passed first base in 1, 2 and 3. If you say yes, they must be appealed. If you say no, they can be out immediately.

Assumption: Your reference is a standard play from fair territory with a good throw which could not be considered "errant".

The comment in RS#1, I believe, is directed more towards the individual umpire/coach that wants to believe that the BR must actually touch the base to be considered having "legally" touched the base. It is probably a compliment to rule 7.3.B where under Touching Bases In Legal Order it is noted that a runner passing a base is considered to have touched that base. The purpose of this is more for determining force outs and awarding of bases than to actually declare the runner had touched the base.

Based on 8.2.M.3.Effect, I would require an appeal for an out call in #2

#3 can be tricky as 8.2.B notes that the BR is out when put out prior to reaching 1B, not "touching" or "passing" the base. The argument can be made that the base "starts" at the edge facing the plate, therefore once a runner's foot is down beyond that point, they have "reached" the base. Since the standard mechanic is going to take the umpire into fair territory, this is going to be more difficult to determine the closer the foot is to the base, hence more likely to initiate a "safe" ruling pending an appeal.

[ajaywill]

#1 is an immediate out - the thrown ball beat the runner to the bag.

#2, 3, 4 are all immediate safe calls, the runner touched or passed some portion of first base before the throw was caught. Since the runner did not touch the colored safety base as s/he is required to, the play is subject to appeal.

This must be a live ball appeal and be made before the runner returns to first base.

[HugoTafurst]

#1 is an immediate out - the thrown ball beat the runner to the bag.

#2, 3, 4 are all immediate safe calls, the runner touched or passed some portion of first base before the throw was caught. Since the runner did not touch the colored safety base as s/he is required to, the play is subject to appeal.

This must be a live ball appeal and be made before the runner returns to first base.

Agree (If anyone is counting)