another missed base scenario

[Sean Jordan]

runner on second, umpire positions himself between short and third, slow rolling ground ball to third, umpire says runner beat throw to first, but the runner clearly misses first base, with the first baseman standing on first receiving the throw. I call time ask the base ump to ask for help as I am thinking that missed first base with first baseman holding the ball while foot is on the bag means force out. home plate ump say runner clearly missed first base, but since the runner missed first base the out can only be made as an appeal play with a tag.

Why not force out on a bang bang play with a missed base?

[Comp]

Once passed a base, the runner is assumed to have touched the base until properly appealed. If the runner beat the throw to the base, regardless of if they have touched it or not, they are assumed to have and would be safe. The appeal must be a live ball appeal and must be made before the runner returns to the base. A tag of the runner is not necessary, touching the base with posession of the ball and appealing the missed base is sufficient, but must as stated, must be done during live ball and before runner returns to the base.

[MTR]

runner on second, umpire positions himself between short and third, slow rolling ground ball to third, umpire says runner beat throw to first, but the runner clearly misses first base, with the first baseman standing on first receiving the throw.

By rule, the runner is safe.

I call time

You request time.

ask the base ump to ask for help as I am thinking that missed first base with first baseman holding the ball while foot is on the bag means force out.

It isn't possible to have a "force out" at 1B. A force out can only happen when a runner is required to vacate a base because the batter became a batter-runner. The effect is relatively the same though the rule involving the BR is separate from that of a force out.

home plate ump say runner clearly missed first base, but since the runner missed first base the out can only be made as an appeal play with a tag.

Two problems here. One is that it doesn't have to be a tag. The appeal may be made by touching the base and, like a tag, the intention announced. The second it that the appeal must be made prior to the runner returning to the base or play being suspended. So, the moment the umpire recognized and granted your request for time, you lost the right to appeal the play.

Why not force out on a bang bang play with a missed base?

Because the defense did not put out the BR.

[Sean Jordan]

The thing that hampered things was that the br was called safe by an ump out of position to see if the gal touched first or not. Home plate saw her miss first. thanks for the info.

[MTR]

The thing that hampered things was that the br was called safe by an ump out of position to see if the gal touched first or not. Home plate saw her miss first. thanks for the info.

How was the umpire of position? OP sounds like he was where he was supposed to be.

It isn't the best position in the world for a play at 1B, but where do you think the priority should be, play at 3B or 1B?

BTW, one thing we forgot. Speaking ASA, you don't have the authority to appeal a missed base. That can only be made by an defender in the infield.

[clintbos]

Wow. I am always amazed by these answers. It has been 20 years since I have stopped umpiring baseball and reaching the college level. Without looking up the rule....

Someone said... there is no such thing as a force out at first base huh!!!!. The only time it IS NOT a force out is if she has already reached the bag safely which by default means she has to touch the bag before the ball is caught by the first baseman. If the 1st baseman is standing there with the ball with here foot on the bag then she has appealed the play already. what you want her to do...throw the ball back to the pitcher and pitcher back to the first baseman and yell appeal!!!!. In that situation I would have immediately called her out for missing the bag.

[UmpSteve]

Wow. I am always amazed by these answers. It has been 20 years since I have stopped umpiring baseball and reaching the college level. Without looking up the rule....

Someone said... there is no such thing as a force out at first base huh!!!!. The only time it IS NOT a force out is if she has already reached the bag safely which by default means she has to touch the bag before the ball is caught by the first baseman. If the 1st baseman is standing there with the ball with here foot on the bag then she has appealed the play already. what you want her to do...throw the ball back to the pitcher and pitcher back to the first baseman and yell appeal!!!!. In that situation I would have immediately called her out for missing the bag.

Well, Clint, it's a good thing you told us you didn't look up the rule. Because you couldn't be more wrong.

Suggest you forget what you think you know, and read the rule. The softball rule, since we aren't discussing baseball. There is no (and I repeat NO) force out at first base as defined in any softball rule book. Any time, any play, no exceptions.

[Sean Jordan]

Clint I was with your thinking on this, gal has her foot on bag runner never touches it, boom force out at first. This is a stupid rule.

[MTR]

Wow. I am always amazed by these answers. It has been 20 years since I have stopped umpiring baseball and reaching the college level. Without looking up the rule....

Someone said... there is no such thing as a force out at first base huh!!!!. The only time it IS NOT a force out is if she has already reached the bag safely which by default means she has to touch the bag before the ball is caught by the first baseman. If the 1st baseman is standing there with the ball with here foot on the bag then she has appealed the play already. what you want her to do...throw the ball back to the pitcher and pitcher back to the first baseman and yell appeal!!!!. In that situation I would have immediately called her out for missing the bag.

From OBR (MLB):
A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base
by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

APPROVED RULING: Two out, bases full, batter hits home run over fence. Batter, on appeal, is
declared out for missing first base. Three outs. No run counts.
Here is a general statement that covers:
When a runner misses a base and a fielder holds the ball on a missed base, or on the base originally occupied by the runner if a fly ball is caught, and appeals for the umpire’s decision, the runner is out when the umpire sustains the appeal; all runners may score if possible, except that with two out the runner is out at the moment he misses the bag, if an appeal is sustained as applied to the following runners.

Since the batter doesn't occupy a base from which they may not be forced, it cannot be a "force" play.

The rule is the same in baseball as softball and was 23 years ago when I was working baseball.

There are also no accidental appeals. A team must indicate their actions are appealing a specific play.

And, as has been noted, this is softball, not baseball, but that does not make it stupid. For that matter, after 45 years of baseball and softball, I believe softball maintains a more level playing field which makes it easier to understand the progress and actions of those involved. The only people that I know think its stupid are those who do not understand the game.

[Bretman]

No, it's not a "baseball vs. softball" kind of thing...

This interpretation is from the Major League Baseball Umpire Manual:

Play: Batter-runner hits a ground ball and beats the play at first base but misses the bag.
Ruling: The proper mechanic is for the umpire to call the runner safe, indicating he beat the play. If the defense appeals by tagging the runner (or base) and appealing that the runner missed first base before the runner returns to first base, the batter-runner would be declared out.

This is the exact same way it's handled in softball.