Illegal Pitches

[tcannizzo]

Mark H, I think you remember our old buddy Bill Redmer whose "ground power" was so anti-leap it was almost a jihad against leaping.
However, one of the more rational statements he made, as I recall from him, was a study on the effects on the the knees from leaping versus pushing. I tend to believe that true leapers will need more surgeries than pushers.

[Marriard]

My personal opinion is that the 'leap' is the gateway to the 'replant' or 'crow-hop' which do give an advantage ...

I agree - so they could easily make a the rule change to remove the 'leap' call while leaving in the rules replants/crowhops as illegal pitches which I do agree provide an advantage. This would be a much easier call for the umpires to make and would take a whole lot of judgement out of the call as it stands today.

[MTR]

However, one of the more rational statements he made, as I recall from him, was a study on the effects on the the knees from leaping versus pushing. I tend to believe that true leapers will need more surgeries than pushers.

Actually, I noted the NCAA's concern two seasons ago on this issue.

When asked, an NCAA rep at a national convention, if after the tidal wave of IPs called the previous season if the NCAA would abandon the rule prohibiting leaping and go more towards just keeping the toe pointed down, the response was surprising.

She stated that it would probably be addressed at some point, but nothing would probably be changed until they conducted the appropriate studies to determine the physical effect it would cause a female player. SHE NOTED that male and female bodies are anatomically different and the "leap" may have a different effect to the female than the male.

Now, I am not aware of any such study or if others in the NCAA agreed, but I would have to think that at some point the rule has been discussed and this issue raised.

[Marriard]

Actually, I noted the NCAA's concern two seasons ago on this issue.

When asked, an NCAA rep at a national convention, if after the tidal wave of IPs called the previous season if the NCAA would abandon the rule prohibiting leaping and go more towards just keeping the toe pointed down, the response was surprising.

She stated that it would probably be addressed at some point, but nothing would probably be changed until they conducted the appropriate studies to determine the physical effect it would cause a female player. SHE NOTED that male and female bodies are anatomically different and the "leap" may have a different effect to the female than the male.

Frankly what a load of *#@*#@*.

It is currently legal to pitch some poor girl 14-20 innings a weekend and it is OK to start the same pitcher the day after she went 14 innings the previous night but we need a study to see if jumping out might hurt someone a little bit (which will be 'inconclusive'). Certainly hasn't seemed to hurt most of the pro FP pitchers who seem to leap about like high jumpers.

Maybe we should outlaw dunking in woman's basketball because they might get hurt because they left the ground. No layups either for the same reason.

Meanwhile every other #1 senior pitcher in college seems to have needed major arm surgery. Maybe they should look into what is causing that (as if we didn't know).

Meanwhile we have to put up with a rule that is pretty much unenforceable and causes major conflicts every time it is called.

[Comp]

Legalizing the leap wont stop any illegal pitch call from becoming a major conflict. The coaches will just go nuts about the next thing thats being called, the replant, outside the lane etc. Georgia had the girl a couple of years ago that was constantly outside the lane and when she was finally called for it at the WCWS the coach was going ape **** on the umpires.

[Bretman]

Kind of hard for me to imagine significantly more stress being put on the stride knee if a pitcher's pivot foot is a few inches off the ground (illegal) versus just barely brushing along the dirt (legal). It seems like the torque and stress on the landing leg would be about the same.

But then again...if you legalize leaping, that opens up the possibility of a pitcher really leaping out there, shooting off the rubber like a standing broad jumper. She could jump several feet through the air and gain some vertical distance before landing. That probably would increase the stress dramatically.

[Marriard]

But then again...if you legalize leaping, that opens up the possibility of a pitcher really leaping out there, shooting off the rubber like a standing broad jumper. She could jump several feet through the air and gain some vertical distance before landing. That probably would increase the stress dramatically.

There would really be no advantage to leaping too far - you would lose balance/power/etc. That is why the replant/crowhop would need to stay in.

[MTR]

Frankly what a load of *#@*#@*.

Really? So the NCAA rep has absolutely no idea what she is talking about?

It is currently legal to pitch some poor girl 14-20 innings a weekend and it is OK to start the same pitcher the day after she went 14 innings the previous night but we need a study to see if jumping out might hurt someone a little bit (which will be 'inconclusive'). Certainly hasn't seemed to hurt most of the pro FP pitchers who seem to leap about like high jumpers.

I guess you are the expert. How silly of me to provide the response from one of the people the NCAA listens to when you obviously know better.

Maybe we should outlaw dunking in woman's basketball because they might get hurt because they left the ground. No layups either for the same reason.

Meanwhile every other #1 senior pitcher in college seems to have needed major arm surgery. Maybe they should look into what is causing that (as if we didn't know).

Meanwhile we have to put up with a rule that is pretty much unenforceable and causes major conflicts every time it is called.

Actually, it is very enforceable, you and your cohorts just don't want so hear it as it doesn't fit your agenda.

[Marriard]

Frankly what a load of *#@*#@*.

Really? So the NCAA rep has absolutely no idea what she is talking about?

Don't know the person so I have no idea is she knows what she is talking about but I do recognize classic passing the buck on what is seen as a hard topic. I am not sure how you can justify not dealing with this issue by claiming they need some sort of study about injuries before they make a rule change. Organizing bodies make rule changes all the time which could possibly have some physical effect on a player.

I guess you are the expert. How silly of me to provide the response from one of the people the NCAA listens to when you obviously know better.

Me? I am entitled to my opinion just as they are. I certainly feel my opinion has some reasonable thought behind it based on how the rule is called from 10U up through college. There should be a discussion as to how the rule should be changed or how it is to be called so it easier to enforce by the umpires but that doesn't seem to be on the short-term agenda. I am open to my ideas/thoughts being totally wrong and being persuaded that there is a better way of dealing with this.

Actually, it is very enforceable, you and your cohorts just don't want so hear it as it doesn't fit your agenda.

Really? Then why isn't it enforced then? I don't have an agenda - the girls on the teams I currently coach are pitching legal and are lucky enough to have good PC's who work to make sure they stay that way. Not every pitcher is so lucky to have such coaching or even a pitching coach to help them out.

This rule gets called seemingly randomly depending on the phase of the moon or some other unknown factor so how exactly do you see this being enforced today? I was at a travel tournament today and saw many pitchers who were illegal or certainly looked illegal (some of the holes in front of the pitching rubber on 2 fields were pretty impressive) and I didn't see a single pitched called illegal today. Not one. A few weeks ago they decided it was the day to call it and I saw it called in lots of games where it chased several pitchers out of the game.

And I don't have cohorts. I am just another coach/umpire/parent who recognizes a rule that is hard to call and makes the umpires job harder. I think recognition that a solution that works needs to be found is the first step in making progress in solving this issue because what is currently happening should not be an acceptable situation.

[Sam]

Let them use the same rules used by the men. Get rid of the pitcher's plate lines. Have the umpires call the actual strike zone....no Chevy emblem. The game would be fine with less arguing.