HS illegal substitution?

[SoCalASABlue]

Scenario is home team lineup card shows batter number five with jersey number 3 even though the player is actually wearing jersey number 1. Coach brings this up to the umpire AFTER batter number 5 (wearing jersey number 1, not jersey number 3 as listed on the official lineup card) just knocked in the game winning run claiming that this player was incorrectly identified on the lineup card and therefore should be declared out as an illegal substitution. PU disagreed and stated that NFHS rule changed to allow on-the-spot correction of the lineup card and a warning to the offending team - however the game winning hit stands and game over.

Just curious since I don't do HS games...I know to most HS games are the same as rec (and in this case this game was like watching a rec ball game ) but the call does seem a little curious...

Although the coach who seemed to think this was some kind of ace up her sleeve did her team a great disservice...IMHO...

[Fredegar]

Not sure about NFHS rules, but according to ASA:

Rule 4-1-A-1: "....If a wrong number is listed in the line-up, correct it and continue playing with no penalty...."

[Comp]

If this was game winning hit, why did the opposing coach wait until the end of the game to bring it up to the umpire? Yes, if it is simply an incorrect number listed, then correct it, warn the coach, play ball.

[SoCalASABlue]

If this was game winning hit, why did the opposing coach wait until the end of the game to bring it up to the umpire? Yes, if it is simply an incorrect number listed, then correct it, warn the coach, play ball.

Because the coach (no previous HS coaching experience but she did coach ASA rec all-stars) was counting on the batter being declared an illegal player as an unreported sub, which would have resulted in disqualification - or so she thought.

I guess she didn't realize (although all she had to do was ask me ) that HS rules are not necessarily the same as ASA rules...and even ASA has removed the disqualification penalty for an unreported substitute.

DOH!!

[UmpSteve]

The coach was simply wrong about the infraction, as well as the penalty. An illegal sub is one that isn't eligible to enter or re-enter; this was not a sub, not illegal, nor unreported. It is simply a clerical change; no penalty whatsover for the correction in ASA, and, accuratelyly applied by the umpire here, a correction and a team warning for the first instance in the game in NFHS. Even if a second instance, the penalty is the head coach restricted to the dugout.

Only NCAA penalized inaccurate lineups in a manner even close to what this coach expected. In the NCAA, that lineup correction would result in the batter being declared out and the play negated (if appealed before a next pitch (assuming there is to be one), infield leaving the field (at the end of an inning), or umpires leaving the field (at the end of the game). No one disqualified, no one illegal; just the penalty for an inaccurate lineup.

[Comp]

As UmpSteve has indicated, this was neither an illegal sub, or unreported sub. But, this is one thing I do have a problem with as the rules are written. For the most part, players in the game do not have their names on their shirt they have a number. Everything we do is based on that number, batting order is by the number, score keeping is by the number etc. My personal opinion is the penalty should be more severe for having an improper lineup card because all it does is creat confusion, and as an umpire, how do we in fact verify that Suzy is #1 and Patty is #5, do we demand birth certificates?

I personally had a game a couple years ago where the lineup had numbers switched, and the first time through the team batted by number. However, the 2nd time through they batted by name and the other team appealed for a batting out of order. By rule there was nothing I could do other than correct the numbers and continue on since both ASA and FED go by name and not number. So, the team got away with batting out of order the first time since the only reference anyone has is the jersey number and not the name.

[GIMNEPIWO]

On my youngest DD's HS team, there were two sets of zacklies ... My daughters and one other set ... The other sisters, one who was a starter and one who was not , would often go behind the dugout and switch jersies ... The Coach couldn't tell but players would catch on quickly ... I agree with COMP, although I myself have submitted line-up cards with incorrect numbers ... It really becomes a matter of character ... Honest mistake or someone trying to cheat ?

[Comp]

On my youngest DD's HS team, there were two sets of zacklies ... My daughters and one other set ... The other sisters, one who was a starter and one who was not , would often go behind the dugout and switch jersies ... The Coach couldn't tell but players would catch on quickly ... I agree with COMP, although I myself have submitted line-up cards with incorrect numbers ... It really becomes a matter of character ... Honest mistake or someone trying to cheat ?

Saw this happen a few years ago at ASA 18 nationals. Team had identical twin sisters and the coach had burned one of the girls reentries. So, they switched jerseys and the coach then used the illegal girl as a legal substitute. Im not sure exactly how it got caught, but when it did it turned into a big mess and game was shut down for about 45 minutes while they figured out what to do.

[MTR]

Saw this happen a few years ago at ASA 18 nationals. Team had identical twin sisters and the coach had burned one of the girls reentries. So, they switched jerseys and the coach then used the illegal girl as a legal substitute. Im not sure exactly how it got caught, but when it did it turned into a big mess and game was shut down for about 45 minutes while they figured out what to do.

Well, I hope that at the end fo the 45 minutes, the minimum result was the HC being ejected.