Circle Violation Clarification - Pitcher hand positioning

[PDad]

AFA requiring the ball to be in the hands and not under an arm, between the knees, etc. is because the pitcher cannot put out a runner without throwing the ball or tagging the runner out without the ball in their hands. IOW, the pitcher cannot make a play without the ball being in their hands. ...

??? Can you elaborate on this? Seems like there has to be more to this rationale (e.g. not wanting LBR to prevent a runner from taking advantage of this live ball situation)...

Could it also be because the pitcher also isn't ready to make a pitch (as TC posted)?

[MTR]

AFA requiring the ball to be in the hands and not under an arm, between the knees, etc. is because the pitcher cannot put out a runner without throwing the ball or tagging the runner out without the ball in their hands. IOW, the pitcher cannot make a play without the ball being in their hands. ...

??? Can you elaborate on this? Seems like there has to be more to this rationale (e.g. not wanting LBR to prevent a runner from taking advantage of this live ball situation)...

Could it also be because the pitcher also isn't ready to make a pitch (as TC posted)?

The rule has nothing to do with the pitcher being ready to pitch. It is all about game control

This is from a rules clarification from ASA a few years ago:

Many years ago the Look Back Rule was established to help speed-up the game by stopping the pitcher and the runner from “toying” with each other when the ball was being returned to the infield after it had been put in play. The rule was not established for the offense or defense to gain an advantage through “trick plays” or by “baiting” the other side into a violation. According to Rule 8, Section 7 T, the batter-runner and / or runner(s) must return to the base or advance to the next base once the ball is returned to the pitcher in the pitcher’s circle. Once the pitcher has possession of the ball in the eight-foot circle and the runner(s) have completed their base running responsibilities or all play has ceased, the play is over.

[Battle]

As Steve noted, what has caused all the consternation are all the people who have looked for and abused what they consider loopholes.

Unfortunately, it is still possible to have the cat and mouse game with pitchers faking a throw or the catcher constantly running players back to bases which is why I prefer the SP mechanic.

...or they could have just left it to the original intent of the rule. If the runner stops forward movement to the next base and the pitcher has the ball in her glove or throwing hand, the runner is out. Take away the fake throw crap. If the reasoning of establishing a rule is to stop the "cat and mouse" game, why in the world would you establish another rule to further it with the fake throw.

I can only assume the reasoning behind it is because, in the younger ages, you would have coaches teaching players to shuffle between bases daring the pitcher to throw. If she faked a throw and the runner stopped then the runner was out. If she actually released the ball, then game on. Someone didn't like that so they changed it when in fact, that is the way it should be IMO. Where am I wrong?

[Battle]

Footnote: and it is not any time P has the ball, but she must be in the circle, with control of the ball and not making a play. Runners are free to "dare" P to make a play, and invite cat-and-mouse action if P is outside the circle.

2nd Footnote, ASA is I believe the only association which states posession and control. All other rule sets I can think of at the moment only specify posession.

Although pony states possession only, here is part of a letter from UIC for pony.

When the batter does not become the batter-runner, the circle rule goes into effect
once the pitcher has possession of the ball in the circle. Let’s break these elements
down. First, the pitcher must have the ball. Second, possession means actual
possession. Contrary to NCAA, in PONY, the pitcher must be in actual physical
possession of the ball. That is, the ball is in her hand or glove. Placing the ball under her
arm, in the glove on the ground, or between her legs negates enforcement of the
circle rule. Third, the pitcher must be in the circle. What does that mean? That means
that both of the pitcher’s feet are at least touching the lines of the 8 foot pitcher’s
circle. Once these three elements are met, the circle rule is in effect.

So after reading this, what is the difference between possession and control?

[Bretman]

So after reading this, what is the difference between possession and control?

I can't comment on how NCAA or PONY interprets this because I don't work those sanctions. However, the difference between "possession" and "control" is well documented in NFHS and ASA.

"Possession" in the NFHS rule simply means that the pitcher has the ball. It might be in her glove, her bare hand, tucked in the crook of her elbow or held in her glove between her knees while she fixes her hair. For their rules, all of these satisfy the requirement of "possession" with respect to the look back rule.

For ASA, they require "control" of the ball. That means the ball must be securely held in the hand or glove. Anything else and the requirements of the look back rule are not met.

Here are their respective rules:

NFHS: The look-back rule will be in effect when the ball is live, the batter-runner has touched first base or has been declared out, and the pitcher has possession of the ball within the pitcher's circle.

ASA: The “Look Back” rule shall be in effect for all runners when the ball is live, the batter-runner has touched first base or has been declared out, and the pitcher has possession and control of the ball within the pitcher’s circle.

[MTR]

...or they could have just left it to the original intent of the rule. If the runner stops forward movement to the next base and the pitcher has the ball in her glove or throwing hand, the runner is out. Take away the fake throw crap. If the reasoning of establishing a rule is to stop the "cat and mouse" game, why in the world would you establish another rule to further it with the fake throw.

The fake throw is not the sole issue.

And what you are suggesting that once a BR becomes a R and stops, she gives up her ability to advance to 2B and if she wants to go to 2B, it must be non-stop. And why an out? What is it about FP people that always want to call somebody out for any little thing?

I can only assume the reasoning behind it is because, in the younger ages, you would have coaches teaching players to shuffle between bases daring the pitcher to throw. If she faked a throw and the runner stopped then the runner was out. If she actually released the ball, then game on. Someone didn't like that so they changed it when in fact, that is the way it should be IMO. Where am I wrong?

I'm all with you going back to where it was......when there was no such rule. When I played FP back in the 70's, when the play was over, the runners went to the base, the fielders went to the position and the pitcher went to the PP to throw the next pitch. No jerking each other around, and if it became an issue, the umpire would just kill the ball and we would move on to the next play.

Probably some win at all costs coaches figured there was nothing in the book, so they gave the rules makers a reason to make a rule to lock it down.

[Anti-Clone]

If the runner stops forward movement to the next base and the pitcher has the ball in her glove or throwing hand, the runner is out. Take away the fake throw crap. If the reasoning of establishing a rule is to stop the "cat and mouse" game, why in the world would you establish another rule to further it with the fake throw.

A runner in motion when the pitcher gets the ball is permitted one stop, then must immediately decide to continue or retreat. NCAA is a bit different, but all other codes agree with this statement.

[Anti-Clone]

NCAA:

12.21.1 The look-back rule is in effect when the ball is live, the batter-runner has
touched first base, there are one or more base runners, and the pitcher has
possession (for example, has the ball in her hand or glove, under her arm or
chin, or between her legs) and control of the ball within the pitcher’s circle.
The pitcher is considered to be in the pitcher’s circle when both her feet are
within the circle or on the lines.