Pinch runner scores - who gets run?

[HardA**Mom]

Someone else has pointed out that there could be a difference in the way this is scored depending on whether the runner is a "courtesy runner" or a "pinch runner". Neither player remains in the game as a replacement player - that would be classified as a "substitute". What all this means to differences in the way who gets credit for a run scored is beyond me!

[ontheblack]

here is the difference:
A CR is not a substitute for the player and cannot stay in the game at the defensive position of the player for which they are running.

The pinch runner is a substitute who could stay in the game defensively.

It is very cut and dry. Anything the substitute (the pinch runner in the case) does while in the game is credited to them.

[Fredegar]

I have no reason to doubt Ump Steve (or anyone else, for that matter) but I still would like to know if there's an official reference in any baseball or softball rule book. If not, then it still seems to be up to the scorekeeper/manager/umpire/league/etc. What am I missing?

It seems you're hung up on the fact that no one is providing you an official reference in a rule book. Sorry, but after looking around on the internet, I can't find anything either.

Given that no official reference is handy, we must use evidence from MLB and NCAA Baseball/Softball. If you follow any specific game, and look at box scores, you'll see that the Substitute player always gets credit for everything they do while in the game (stolen bases, scoring runs, etc.). There's simply no question about this. Same as if a sub enters defensively and makes an error. Scorekeepers don't get to choose when the original player gets credit for something...makes no sense.

Some have suggested that stats for Courtesy Runners might be handled differently. I don't see how. The CRs are still reported to the umpires. The CRs are still the ones stealing bases, scoring runs, etc. Because NCAA and MLB don't use CRs, there's no evidence to consider. But unless you find something that explicitly says to handle those stats differently, they should be handled as a normal Sub situation, getting credit for what they do while they're officially in the game.

[UmpSteve]

Some have suggested that stats for Courtesy Runners might be handled differently. I don't see how. The CRs are still reported to the umpires. The CRs are still the ones stealing bases, scoring runs, etc. Because NCAA and MLB don't use CRs, there's no evidence to consider. But unless you find something that explicitly says to handle those stats differently, they should be handled as a normal Sub situation, getting credit for what they do while they're officially in the game.

To explain:

GHSA (Georgia High School), like most states, is concerned with overuse of players; thus there is a limit on how many games a player may participate in, so that coaches don't overuse players by playing both varsity and JV. The limit on appearances is the total number of varsity games, so if a team drops a marginal player to a JV game for experience, they lose a varsity "appearance".

At the same time, they defined two instances where a player can participate in a game, but not be charged as an "appearance"; this to enable smaller squads to carry JV players to varsity games. Those two instances are 1) if listed as a flex, but removed at start of game (never actually participating, but the strategy to go back to 10 is preserved), or 2) if used exclusively as a courtesy runner. In this way, they urge the participation and use of the courtesy runner, but don't charge those used with a game played.

So that leaves a scoring dilemma; how can you justify giving statistics to a player who was officially never in the game? Or, conversely, how do you justify considering she wasn't in the game if you intend to give her credits for statistics? And, how do you appease the parents of pitchers and catchers who swear that they were screwed from the all-important postseason awards because your coach used the courtesy runner, and other teams let their players build up stats by staying on base?

At least here, the answer is to give whatever a courtesy runner (who never entered the game) does to the pitcher or catcher. Absolutely not true of a substitute; that person is now in the game, and the starter isn't. That simple.

[Fredegar]

GHSA (Georgia High School), like most states, is concerned with overuse of players; thus there is a limit on how many games a player may participate in, so that coaches don't overuse players by playing both varsity and JV. The limit on appearances is the total number of varsity games, so if a team drops a marginal player to a JV game for experience, they lose a varsity "appearance".

At the same time, they defined two instances where a player can participate in a game, but not be charged as an "appearance"; this to enable smaller squads to carry JV players to varsity games. Those two instances are 1) if listed as a flex, but removed at start of game (never actually participating, but the strategy to go back to 10 is preserved), or 2) if used exclusively as a courtesy runner. In this way, they urge the participation and use of the courtesy runner, but don't charge those used with a game played.

So that leaves a scoring dilemma; how can you justify giving statistics to a player who was officially never in the game? Or, conversely, how do you justify considering she wasn't in the game if you intend to give her credits for statistics? And, how do you appease the parents of pitchers and catchers who swear that they were screwed from the all-important postseason awards because your coach used the courtesy runner, and other teams let their players build up stats by staying on base?

At least here, the answer is to give whatever a courtesy runner (who never entered the game) does to the pitcher or catcher. Absolutely not true of a substitute; that person is now in the game, and the starter isn't. That simple.

I understand what you're saying. But this solution is inconsistent. It credits stolen bases to some pitcher/catcher, solely because their CR earned them. That's not right. As you said, postseason awards might be based, in part, on SB stats. Yet they're lies.

You said GHSA allows exceptions for Flex and CR not counting as an appearance for purposes of games played. Fine. As long as it's recognized, it should be ok to correctly assign stolen bases and runs scored to such players. If they earn stats in that capacity, it shouldn't ruin their eligibility which allows them to play those roles.

Obviously, HS teams, TB teams, Rec teams can do whatever they want to doctor their stats. No one's going to scorekeeper prison over this. However, for the purpose of the OP, all official evidence points to stats going to the specific player who earns them.

[GIMNEPIWO]

I have no reason to doubt Ump Steve (or anyone else, for that matter) but I still would like to know if there's an official reference in any baseball or softball rule book. If not, then it still seems to be up to the scorekeeper/manager/umpire/league/etc. What am I missing?

You are hung up on the term "pinch runner'. I dont believe ASA mentions this by name because it is considered a straight substitution, per Steve's comments above.

Just as a player who goes into LF as a substitute would have her own stats, so does the substitute who goes into the game on offense.

You did pick the right nickname, though.

HardA** ... If a batter is coming up and the Coach puts your DD in as a 'pinch hitter' (substitute) ... Your DD goes yard, who gets credit for the dinger ? Your DD or the player she was ' pinch hitting' for ? ... same same

[HardA**Mom]

GIMNEPIWO - My position has always been to give whomever bats (in starting lineup, substitute, pinch-hitter, whatever) credit for whatever they do at bat (hit, SB, out, etc.) and I haven't seen anything in this thread to convince me otherwise.

Also: I have always given pinch/courtesy runners credit for stolen bases/caught stealing and, similarly, haven't seen anything in this thread to convince me otherwise.

However: even though I haven't been steered to any place in any rule book that offers a clear-cut answer (PDad referenced an NAIA rule book that speaks to courtesy runners, but without a supporting link), the sheer preponderance of anecdotal evidence and historical usage has convinced me that the courtesy/pinch runner who crosses the plate, rather than the batter who created the opportunity to score, should get credit for scoring a run.

I greatly enjoy these discussions - at least with the vast majority of contributors who take the high road and understand that we're all only interested in doing what's right and helping others do the same.

Thanks!

[GIMNEPIWO]

GIMNEPIWO - My position has always been to give whomever bats (in starting lineup, substitute, pinch-hitter, whatever) credit for whatever they do at bat (hit, SB, out, etc.) and I haven't seen anything in this thread to convince me otherwise.

Also: I have always given pinch/courtesy runners credit for stolen bases/caught stealing and, similarly, haven't seen anything in this thread to convince me otherwise.

However: even though I haven't been steered to any place in any rule book that offers a clear-cut answer (PDad referenced an NAIA rule book that speaks to courtesy runners, but without a supporting link), the sheer preponderance of anecdotal evidence and historical usage has convinced me that the courtesy/pinch runner who crosses the plate, rather than the batter who created the opportunity to score, should get credit for scoring a run.

I greatly enjoy these discussions - at least with the vast majority of contributors who take the high road and understand that we're all only interested in doing what's right and helping others do the same.

Thanks!

Perhaps the reason you are having trouble finding it, is that it does not exist ... When you substitute for a player she is no longer in the game ... The only time I know of that someone gets credit for something that they did after they have been removed would be the pitcher ...

EDIT 7AM ; Wait a minute ... After re reading your posts 100% sober ... I thought you were saying that if a baserunner is substituted for the ORIGINAL player kept the stats for what the substitute did ... Now I think you are saying otherwise, which would be correct ... The substitute keeps the stats for what ever she does ...

[Fredegar]

EDIT 7AM ; Wait a minute ... After re reading your posts 100% sober ... I thought you were saying that if a baserunner is substituted for the ORIGINAL player kept the stats for what the substitute did ... Now I think you are saying otherwise, which would be correct ...

I mean no disrespect, but you're saying you were sober when you made THIS edit? Your previous comment made sense. Unfortunately, I've read this Edit a couple times, (and maybe I'M the one who's not sober), but I don't know what you're trying to say. I think I'll have another.

[GIMNEPIWO]

EDIT 7AM ; Wait a minute ... After re reading your posts 100% sober ... I thought you were saying that if a baserunner is substituted for the ORIGINAL player kept the stats for what the substitute did ... Now I think you are saying otherwise, which would be correct ...

I mean no disrespect, but you're saying you were sober when you made THIS edit? Your previous comment made sense. Unfortunately, I've read this Edit a couple times, (and maybe I'M the one who's not sober), but I don't know what you're trying to say. I think I'll have another.

LOL ... I'm not sure ... Each time I read her post I think she asking a different question ... Is she asking ? ... never mind