who's in charge?

[GIMNEPIWO]

An umpire can initiate a conversation with another umpire in order to discuss the application and interpretation of a rule.

An umpire cannot simply overturn another umpires call. They get away with this from time to time in football and basketball, but not baseball or softball.

NFHS 10-3-G ... Interesting that the PU can " make final decision on points not covered by the rules " ... It seems they should also make a final decision on points that are covered by the rules ...

No. The reason it says "plate umpire" is because if something isn't covered and the umpires can't agree on it, there needs to be a final decision and it's the plate umpire who decides.

Just like the plate umpire is solely responsible for determining whether a field is playable in most associations. That doesn't mean that both umpires can discuss it. It means that if they can't decide, the plate umpire gets to make the final decision.

Your proposal that the plate umpire be able to have the final decision on every call is preposterous.

Didn't say that ... So, either you're a hose head or misunderstood, or I mis-spoke ... What I am trying to say, is that if a BU mis-interprets the rules and the plate umpire knows this, shouldn't he be able to reverse the call ( after conference ) to manage the game,avoid protests, get the call right, etc. ...

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Please fill me in on the misinterpretation of a rule.

Again, not saying it IS a rule ... I am questioning why, that if the PU makes all final decisions on things not covered by the rules, shouldn't they also make all final decisions on things that are covered by the rules ? Doesn't someone need to be in charge in both situations ? Suppose you are behind the dish and the BU clearly mis-applies an OBS call ... OC or DC come out and questions the call ... A conference ensues between you and the BU and although you know he has mis-applied a rule and explain it to them, they won't change the call and stick with their mis-interpretation ... You let the OC/DC protest the game ( in some cases having to pony up a $100 fee )? You let the call stand ? It seems like there should be some chain of command on the field ...

[MTR]

Again, not saying it IS a rule ... I am questioning why, that if the PU makes all final decisions on things not covered by the rules, shouldn't they also make all final decisions on things that are covered by the rules ? Doesn't someone need to be in charge in both situations ? Suppose you are behind the dish and the BU clearly mis-applies an OBS call ... OC or DC come out and questions the call ... A conference ensues between you and the BU and although you know he has mis-applied a rule and explain it to them, they won't change the call and stick with their mis-interpretation ... You let the OC/DC protest the game ( in some cases having to pony up a $100 fee )? You let the call stand ? It seems like there should be some chain of command on the field ...

Because when there is not guidance from the rule book, some ONE person must be a decision maker, and that is the PU.

Unfortunately, like many coaches, there are umpires who think what they do is right and the rest of the world is wrong in will try to impose their beliefs on others, right or wrong. This is why umpires are assigned particular duties and have mechanics to allow them to make the calls for which they are responsible. They don't need a PU to come out and change a call because the PU believes the BU screwed it up. Could you imagine how crazy that would drive the coaches, especially if the PU had it wrong?

There needs to be some decorum on the field to avoid the chaos that would ensue. A good umpire who realizes there may be a problem will perform any other duties necessary during a discussion, but will also try to get the attention of his/her partner with some sort of motion/signal/whatever the let's they partner know the two should talk.

Remember, just because an umpire may disagree with the call on a play doesn't mean s/he is right. There have been plays where one umpire has a clear view, but the guy 100' away "thinks" s/he saw OBS and throws out the arm. Disagreeing with another umpire's ruling doesn't make it right or wrong and YOU don't need an umpire who can be pressured by an overbearing coach of the opposing team into overruling a partner because s/he doesn't agree with the call.

And when all is said and done, the teams do have a protest procedure in place which brings in people who are supposed to know the rule to make the decision. The best part of that is the person is not involved in the game and any ill-will a coach, player or fan has will be directed toward the UIC, not those on the field so the game can continue, hopefully without any evidence of animosity toward the coaches or umpires.

[PDad]

There needs to be some decorum on the field to avoid the chaos that would ensue. A good umpire who realizes there may be a problem will perform any other duties necessary during a discussion, but will also try to get the attention of his/her partner with some sort of motion/signal/whatever the let's they partner know the two should talk.

I noticed a PU signaling once by pulling on their right collar. I asked him about it and he was letting the BU know the call was right (i.e. correct).

[MTR]

There needs to be some decorum on the field to avoid the chaos that would ensue. A good umpire who realizes there may be a problem will perform any other duties necessary during a discussion, but will also try to get the attention of his/her partner with some sort of motion/signal/whatever the let's they partner know the two should talk.

I noticed a PU signaling once by pulling on their right collar. I asked him about it and he was letting the BU know the call was right (i.e. correct).

While not "official" communication signals, different associations develop umpire-to-umpire signals to save time and offer help, when necessary. The only problem with them is when the players/coaches catch on and don't see a signal at a certain time, or sees a signal indicating one thing and the umpire making the call goes the other way.

[GIMNEPIWO]

Again, not saying it IS a rule ... I am questioning why, that if the PU makes all final decisions on things not covered by the rules, shouldn't they also make all final decisions on things that are covered by the rules ? Doesn't someone need to be in charge in both situations ? Suppose you are behind the dish and the BU clearly mis-applies an OBS call ... OC or DC come out and questions the call ... A conference ensues between you and the BU and although you know he has mis-applied a rule and explain it to them, they won't change the call and stick with their mis-interpretation ... You let the OC/DC protest the game ( in some cases having to pony up a $100 fee )? You let the call stand ? It seems like there should be some chain of command on the field ...

Because when there is not guidance from the rule book, some ONE person must be a decision maker, and that is the PU.

Unfortunately, like many coaches, there are umpires who think what they do is right and the rest of the world is wrong in will try to impose their beliefs on others, right or wrong. This is why umpires are assigned particular duties and have mechanics to allow them to make the calls for which they are responsible. They don't need a PU to come out and change a call because the PU believes the BU screwed it up. Could you imagine how crazy that would drive the coaches, especially if the PU had it wrong?

There needs to be some decorum on the field to avoid the chaos that would ensue. A good umpire who realizes there may be a problem will perform any other duties necessary during a discussion, but will also try to get the attention of his/her partner with some sort of motion/signal/whatever the let's they partner know the two should talk.

Remember, just because an umpire may disagree with the call on a play doesn't mean s/he is right. There have been plays where one umpire has a clear view, but the guy 100' away "thinks" s/he saw OBS and throws out the arm. Disagreeing with another umpire's ruling doesn't make it right or wrong and YOU don't need an umpire who can be pressured by an overbearing coach of the opposing team into overruling a partner because s/he doesn't agree with the call.

And when all is said and done, the teams do have a protest procedure in place which brings in people who are supposed to know the rule to make the decision. The best part of that is the person is not involved in the game and any ill-will a coach, player or fan has will be directed toward the UIC, not those on the field so the game can continue, hopefully without any evidence of animosity toward the coaches or umpires.

I am not talking about disagreeing with a call ... I am saying the BU has it wrong, you know it, explain it, he/she won't change their call ... Say you are behind the dish in a HS game ... NFHS ... The hurler is starting with one foot behind the rubber and the BU only has ASA experience ... He/she keeps calling an IP and you are going to allow it ?

[Anti-Clone]

I am not talking about disagreeing with a call ... I am saying the BU has it wrong, you know it, explain it, he/she won't change their call ... Say you are behind the dish in a HS game ... NFHS ... The hurler is starting with one foot behind the rubber and the BU only has ASA experience ... He/she keeps calling an IP and you are going to allow it ?

What is "it" that he has wrong? You need to separate poor judgment calls with misapplications of playing rules.

Judgment calls = eat crow.

Misapplication of a playing rule = can be corrected by the umpire. If you still aren't happy, protest the game.

[UmpSteve]

G, you have been given the answer several times, but seem to think restating it will change the answer. The PU does not have rule book authority to change the call of a BU, and vice versa. It doesn't matter if it is a judgment call (which shouldn't be discussed) or a rules application (which should be, but only the umpire who makes the call can change it).

For every example you can come with that suggests it would be "better", there are as many examples of how that could be abused and create a worse situation.

Every set of rules I have read not only say one umpire cannot change the other's call, but say something like:

No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpire's decision unless asked by the one making it.

Not sure what else to add. Sometimes there just isn't a pefect world.

[GIMNEPIWO]

G, you have been given the answer several times, but seem to think restating it will change the answer. The PU does not have rule book authority to change the call of a BU, and vice versa. It doesn't matter if it is a judgment call (which shouldn't be discussed) or a rules application (which should be, but only the umpire who makes the call can change it).

For every example you can come with that suggests it would be "better", there are as many examples of how that could be abused and create a worse situation.

Every set of rules I have read not only say one umpire cannot change the other's call, but say something like:

No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpire's decision unless asked by the one making it.

Not sure what else to add. Sometimes there just isn't a pefect world.

I do understand, I just don't necessarily agree in all situations ... But, like you say it isn't a perfect world.