HBP or Strike

[AlwaysImprove]

Call may have been "per the rules", but no one is going to believe it.

If you were that umpire and you had to tell other people knowledgeable about the game, would you actually try to make the case that the girl swung, but was hit by the pitch before she swung?

This call happens way to often. Umpires feel bad calling Dead Ball Strike on a little girl. Even though that is what the rules say is the correct call. Then if a knowledgeable coach questions them on it, they head for the "In my judgement, the pitch hit her before she swung." That is a pretty lame rationalization.

What makes your judgement any better than the umpire's judgement?

A kid swinging after being hit by a pitch is ludicrous. Are you saying otherwise? I would say common sense makes my judgement better than the umpires, in this case.

For every 1 million times a kid starts swinging the bat, and is then hit by a pitch, there will be 1 time that a pitch hits the kid and she then upon being hit by a pitch, she starts swinging the bat.

[GIMNEPIWO]

Call may have been "per the rules", but no one is going to believe it.

If you were that umpire and you had to tell other people knowledgeable about the game, would you actually try to make the case that the girl swung, but was hit by the pitch before she swung?

This call happens way to often. Umpires feel bad calling Dead Ball Strike on a little girl. Even though that is what the rules say is the correct call. Then if a knowledgeable coach questions them on it, they head for the "In my judgement, the pitch hit her before she swung." That is a pretty lame rationalization.

What makes your judgement any better than the umpire's judgement?

A kid swinging after being hit by a pitch is ludicrous. Are you saying otherwise? I would say common sense makes my judgement better than the umpires, in this case.

For every 1 million times a kid starts swinging the bat, and is then hit by a pitch, there will be 1 time that a pitch hits the kid and she then upon being hit by a pitch, she starts swinging the bat.

If you are lucky to live long enough you will see most everything ... Then when you think you've seen everything you see something new ... As rare or ridiculous as it may be, if the pitch hits the batter before she starts her swing and it wasn't in the strike zone, HBP. ... Even if it is one in a million.

[AlwaysImprove]

If you are lucky to live long enough you will see most everything ... Then when you think you've seen everything you see something new ... As rare or ridiculous as it may be, if the pitch hits the batter before she starts her swing and it wasn't in the strike zone, HBP. ... Even if it is one in a million.

The approximately 2000 times i have seen this happen, every single one of them the kid was swinging then struck by the pitch. I would say about 10 times the ump called dead ball strike. 1990 they gave the kid first base.

I only asked the umpire 5 or 6 times. A couple times they claimed the kid altered her path to defend herself. As Comp, MTR, UmpSteve have pointed out, and it is clear in the rules, these umpires got it wrong. Other times they mumble or state, no coach the kid was hit by the pitch she gets her base. Again wrong call.

This call is gotten wrong so routinely that coaches rarely even ask umpires when they get it wrong. It is to the point where the wrong call is largely considered the correct call.

You want to go with far fetched, and lame, meta physics to create some possible explanation this routinely incorrect call on the part of many umpires, feel free. At that point, why not reference the Heisenberg uncertainty principle to claim the ball was not where it was observed? That is a great one for far fetched rationalize of scenarios that did not happen.

I will say based on this thread, it is going to be easy to trap these wrong headed umpires in protest that they will loose. Umpire, yes or no, did you see the kid swinging a bat? Umpire, yes or no, did you see the pitch hit the kid? Umpire, yes or no, did you see the pitch hit the kid before or after she swung the bat? A yes, yes, after, we will end up with a dead ball strike and an overruled and mad umpire.

He wants to take your out on the last question, he creates another issue for himself. Other umpires and TD's largely dislike lame umpires with bad judgement. They create endless issues on the field. So if the other umpires, and the rest of the stands mostly believe she swung and was hit by the pitch, and stuck on wrongheaded blue now wants to claim in is judgement she was hit then swung, he is not going to be seen as very smart.

[GIMNEPIWO]

If you are lucky to live long enough you will see most everything ... Then when you think you've seen everything you see something new ... As rare or ridiculous as it may be, if the pitch hits the batter before she starts her swing and it wasn't in the strike zone, HBP. ... Even if it is one in a million.

The approximately 2000 times i have seen this happen, every single one of them the kid was swinging then struck by the pitch. I would say about 10 times the ump called dead ball strike. 1990 they gave the kid first base.

I only asked the umpire 5 or 6 times. A couple times they claimed the kid altered her path to defend herself. As Comp, MTR, UmpSteve have pointed out, and it is clear in the rules, these umpires got it wrong. Other times they mumble or state, no coach the kid was hit by the pitch she gets her base. Again wrong call.

This call is gotten wrong so routinely that coaches rarely even ask umpires when they get it wrong. It is to the point where the wrong call is largely considered the correct call.

You want to go with far fetched, and lame, meta physics to create some possible explanation this routinely incorrect call on the part of many umpires, feel free. At that point, why not reference the Heisenberg uncertainty principle to claim the ball was not where it was observed? That is a great one for far fetched rationalize of scenarios that did not happen.

I will say based on this thread, it is going to be easy to trap these wrong headed umpires in protest that they will loose. Umpire, yes or no, did you see the kid swinging a bat? Umpire, yes or no, did you see the pitch hit the kid? Umpire, yes or no, did you see the pitch hit the kid before or after she swung the bat? A yes, yes, after, we will end up with a dead ball strike and an overruled and mad umpire.

He wants to take your out on the last question, he creates another issue for himself. Other umpires and TD's largely dislike lame umpires with bad judgement. They create endless issues on the field. So if the other umpires, and the rest of the stands mostly believe she swung and was hit by the pitch, and stuck on wrongheaded blue now wants to claim in is judgement she was hit then swung, he is not going to be seen as very smart.

I see no place where they say " the Umpire got it wrong" , except in telling you that attempting to protect herself with the bat is different than swinging ... I would agree that I have never seen a batter hit by a pitch and swing the bat afterwards ... And since you have seen it the other way 2000 times, maybe the next time will be your first ... Keep me posted.

[AlwaysImprove]

Sure they do.

"if the batter was attempting to strike the ball when hit, it is a strike."

You must be reading that differently than I am. She starts her swing, and is then struck by the pitch. Dead ball strike.

I get that you do not like making this call. It is the call according to the rules. Not making it is going to get you into goofy land.

[PDad]

Sure they do.

"if the batter was attempting to strike the ball when hit, it is a strike." True

You must be reading that differently than I am. She starts her swing, and is then struck by the pitch. Dead ball strike. Depends - see UmpSteve's clarification.

I get that you do not like making this call. It is the call according to the rules. Not making it is going to get you into goofy land.

If the bat had even begun to swing when the batter is contacted, and the bat entered the hitting zone (not checked before then), or appeared to be an effort to contact the ball (YES, EVEN IN SELF DEFENSE), then it is a dead ball strike according to the rules. The batter doesn't get a pass because she is a slapper and runs forward to contact the ball before it would have reached her, all the same rules apply.

I am hoping that AI may have paraphrased what his umpire actually told him. If the batter attempts to contact the the ball with the bat, of course it is a "swing" or "attempt", and thus a strike. Could it be the umpire acknowledged that the bat may have entered the hitting zone, but that the arm action (in his judgment) appeared to be attempting to avoid the ball rather than to contact it? That case could be a HBP award rather than a dead ball strike. But if he said exactly what he was quoted as saying, dead ball wrong. And grounds for protest.

Starting the swing isn't enough by itself to call a dead ball strike.

[Comp]

Starting a swing is not necessarily an attempt to hit the ball. Batters start swings all the time and hold up, if the batter started a swing and held up prior to being hit, I have a hit by pitch, batter awarded 1st base. If the batter gets more than 1/2 way around and is hit, I have a dead ball strike.

[MTR]

Starting a swing is not necessarily an attempt to hit the ball. Batters start swings all the time and hold up, if the batter started a swing and held up prior to being hit, I have a hit by pitch, batter awarded 1st base. If the batter gets more than 1/2 way around and is hit, I have a dead ball strike.

Pretty much on board with Comp except I wouldn't put apply parameters (half-way, hitting zone, strike zone, etc.). If the batter attempted to hit the ball it is a swing. I will know it when I see it. Unfortunately, IMO, we have far too many people that try to apply specific boundaries or definitions on what is or what isn't this or that.

[PDad]

Starting a swing is not necessarily an attempt to hit the ball. Batters start swings all the time and hold up, if the batter started a swing and held up prior to being hit, I have a hit by pitch, batter awarded 1st base. If the batter gets more than 1/2 way around and is hit, I have a dead ball strike.

Pretty much on board with Comp except I wouldn't put apply parameters (half-way, hitting zone, strike zone, etc.). If the batter attempted to hit the ball it is a swing. I will know it when I see it. Unfortunately, IMO, we have far too many people that try to apply specific boundaries or definitions on what is or what isn't this or that.

Reminds me of SCOTUS Justice Potter Stewart declining to define hard-core pornography in 1964...

[sweetump]

Just want a little clarification about when a batter gets first base or is given a strike in the situation I saw. Slapper appeared to swing first before being hit (this was in the box), but ump ruled she was hit first before the swing and gave her first. Is there an official citation for this? Any info is appreciated.