HBP or Strike

[eclipse09]

Just want a little clarification about when a batter gets first base or is given a strike in the situation I saw. Slapper appeared to swing first before being hit (this was in the box), but ump ruled she was hit first before the swing and gave her first. Is there an official citation for this? Any info is appreciated.

[Comp]

If the umpire judges the batter to be swinging at the pitch, it would be a dead ball strike. If they judge the batter to not be swinging then it is a hit by pitch and 1st base would be the award.

[eclipse09]

If the umpire judges the batter to be swinging at the pitch, it would be a dead ball strike. If they judge the batter to not be swinging then it is a hit by pitch and 1st base would be the award.

This ump said she swung, but said the ball hit her first (ran into it) and awarded her the base.

[AlwaysImprove]

Sorry to make things a bit more detailed.

There is a situation that comes up a lot. The girls starts swinging. About half way through the swing they alter the bats normal swing path. That alteration usually takes the place of holding up the swing, then moving the bat to try to knock down the pitch that is now coming to hit them.

This seems to happen with pitches that have good break on the ball.

There are a few cases for this.
1) The pitch actually crossed the front corner of the plate, then ended up striking the batters hands. The hands were in between the body and the plate.
2) The pitch was never over the plate, and was just too far inside and was destined to hit the batter from the get go. For some reason the kid swung, then ended up defending herself.
3) In between 1 and 2. The pitch was close to the inside corner when it crossed the plate. Then broke in on the batter. Pitch was probably just going to graze, or just miss inside the batter.

Not sure about the rule citations. You often see this ruled as HBP. IMHO, it seems if the kid is swinging this is a dead ball strike.

In the past when I have questioned the ruling, the Umpire was emphatic that the kid was not swinging but merely using the bat in an attempt to defend herself. That seems like a crock of crap.

[Comp]

This ump said she swung, but said the ball hit her first (ran into it) and awarded her the base.

Guess I would have to see the play in person because I cant see how the umpire could say she swung at the pitch, but was hit first and awarded the base.

[GIMNEPIWO]

This ump said she swung, but said the ball hit her first (ran into it) and awarded her the base.

Guess I would have to see the play in person because I cant see how the umpire could say she swang at the pitch, but was hit first and awarded the base.

Of course HTBT ... But at what point do we say that the batter is HBP ? Once the batter is HBP (or dead ball strike ), isn't the ball dead ? If the ball is dead as in HBP, how can the batter swing at it ?

[UmpSteve]

This ump said she swung, but said the ball hit her first (ran into it) and awarded her the base.

Guess I would have to see the play in person because I cant see how the umpire could say she swang at the pitch, but was hit first and awarded the base.

Of course HTBT ... But at what point do we say that the batter is HBP ? Once the batter is HBP (or dead ball strike ), isn't the ball dead ? If the ball is dead as in HBP, how can the batter swing at it ?

That, and what AI quoted his umpire as saying, are both pretty stupid things for an umpire to say. And I've heard a lot of stupid things.

If the bat had even begun to swing when the batter is contacted, and the bat entered the hitting zone (not checked before then), or appeared to be an effort to contact the ball (YES, EVEN IN SELF DEFENSE), then it is a dead ball strike according to the rules. The batter doesn't get a pass because she is a slapper and runs forward to contact the ball before it would have reached her, all the same rules apply.

I am hoping that AI may have paraphrased what his umpire actually told him. If the batter attempts to contact the the ball with the bat, of course it is a "swing" or "attempt", and thus a strike. Could it be the umpire acknowledged that the bat may have entered the hitting zone, but that the arm action (in his judgment) appeared to be attempting to avoid the ball rather than to contact it? That case could be a HBP award rather than a dead ball strike. But if he said exactly what he was quoted as saying, dead ball wrong. And grounds for protest.

I say entering the "hitting zone" rather than crossing the plate, because so many batters are so far forward (slappers, particularly), and others so far back in the batter's box that the bat actually crossing the plate might not even happen in a full swing.

Finally, Comp: Really?? "swang"??

[AlwaysImprove]

Thanks for the clarifications. Ump definitely indicated it would be ok to defend oneself with the bat. I suspect the girl was more defending herself with her hands/arms, so ump was wrong in his description. I just wanted to know a bit more about the decision between HBP and Dead Ball Strike, when the hitter is moving their hands in a swinging motion.

Comp may already know, this is how you swang: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFCY1RIZ-WA

[Comp]

Finally, Comp: Really?? "swang"??

Fixed it. I realize it is a regularly used term in softball, but maybe everyone should look up the definition of "slapper".

[GIMNEPIWO]

This ump said she swung, but said the ball hit her first (ran into it) and awarded her the base.

Guess I would have to see the play in person because I cant see how the umpire could say she swang at the pitch, but was hit first and awarded the base.

Of course HTBT ... But at what point do we say that the batter is HBP ? Once the batter is HBP (or dead ball strike ), isn't the ball dead ? If the ball is dead as in HBP, how can the batter swing at it ?

That, and what AI quoted his umpire as saying, are both pretty stupid things for an umpire to say. And I've heard a lot of stupid things.
If the bat had even begun to swing when the batter is contacted, and the bat entered the hitting zone (not checked before then), or appeared to be an effort to contact the ball (YES, EVEN IN SELF DEFENSE), then it is a dead ball strike according to the rules. The batter doesn't get a pass because she is a slapper and runs forward to contact the ball before it would have reached her, all the same rules apply.

I am hoping that AI may have paraphrased what his umpire actually told him. If the batter attempts to contact the the ball with the bat, of course it is a "swing" or "attempt", and thus a strike. Could it be the umpire acknowledged that the bat may have entered the hitting zone, but that the arm action (in his judgment) appeared to be attempting to avoid the ball rather than to contact it? That case could be a HBP award rather than a dead ball strike. But if he said exactly what he was quoted as saying, dead ball wrong. And grounds for protest.

I say entering the "hitting zone" rather than crossing the plate, because so many batters are so far forward (slappers, particularly), and others so far back in the batter's box that the bat actually crossing the plate might not even happen in a full swing.

Finally, Comp: Really?? "swang"??

I wasn't actually referring to this OP ... But, a batter is HBP ... Then afterwards swings the bat ... What do you have ?