Runner at 1st, does not advance

[conquest]

Situation at a friendly yesterday. Umpire ruled one way - then changed his mind.

Runner at 1st, 1 Out. Hitter hits a low line drive - 2nd baseman one hops it and throws to 1st for the putout (so - Batter/Runner is now out at 1st).

HOWEVER - the runner at 1st mistakes it for a catch and returns to 1st thinking she will get picked off at 1B. Runner stays at 1st after being told no catch was made. Ball returned to the pitcher. Defense then proceeds to throw the ball to first and 1B tags her. Is the runner that returned to 1b safe or is she out?

[GoKorea]

As long as she is still on the base she is safe.

Situation at a friendly yesterday. Umpire ruled one way - then changed his mind.

Runner at 1st, 1 Out. Hitter hits a low line drive - 2nd baseman one hops it and throws to 1st for the putout (so - Batter/Runner is now out at 1st).

HOWEVER - the runner at 1st mistakes it for a catch and returns to 1st thinking she will get picked off at 1B. Runner stays at 1st after being told no catch was made. Ball returned to the pitcher. Defense then proceeds to throw the ball to first and 1B tags her. Is the runner that returned to 1b safe or is she out?

[Comp]

In the play you have described the runner would be safe. Once the batter/runner was put out the runner was no longer required to advance and may safely return to 1st base.

This type of play happens more than you think and the sequence in which things happen are critical. Once the ball was one hopped by the SS, the runner on 1st loses the right to occupy the base and is forced to advance. If the defense had thrown to 1st and tagged the runner first, even if she was still standing on 1st base, she would have been out. But, if the base is tagged first, the batter/runner is out and the force is removed and the runner once again has the right to occupy the base.

[UmpSteve]

In the play you have described the runner would be safe. Once the batter/runner was put out the runner was no longer required to advance and may safely return to 1st base.

This type of play happens more than you think and the sequence in which things happen are critical. Once the ball was one hopped by the SS, the runner on 1st loses the right to occupy the base and is forced to advance. If the defense had thrown to 1st and tagged the runner first, even if she was still standing on 1st base, she would have been out. But, if the base is tagged first, the batter/runner is out and the force is removed and the runner once again has the right to occupy the base.

AND, and often not the case, as long as she begins her return to first base BEFORE the pitcher has established control of the ball in the circle. In other words, leaving a base to go back can be a lookback violation, just as is leaving the base to attempt to advance.

[ajaywill]

I'm curious....what was the umpires initial ruling and what was it changed to?

[conquest]

He initially ruled the runner safe. Other coach argued that she HAD to advance to 2nd. They then appealed and tagged her at 1B and the ump called her out (thereby effectively changing his call).

Like I said - it was a just a scrimmage. No big deal - just wanted to know the correct ruling in case it came up again.

[MichaelVA2000]

As the play is described, I have R1 safe. When F4 short hopped the batted ball and made the force out at first base on the BR, R1 had the option to continue advancing or return to first base.

There could have been the possibility of a look back rule violation depending on the actions of F1 and R1 while the ball was in the circle.

[Anti-Clone]

As the play is described, I have R1 safe. When F4 short hopped the batted ball and made the force out at first base on the BR, R1 had the option to continue advancing or return to first base.

There could have been the possibility of a look back rule violation depending on the actions of F1 and R1 while the ball was in the circle.

Whether a force play is "on" or "off" is very important here, as noted by you and others. For that reason, I bring up the fact that there CANNOT be a force out at 1st base on the BR. Only runners can be forced. The BR is never forced at 1st base. While it may be semantics, I bring it up since it was the topic of conversation.

[MichaelVA2000]

And here I thought the BR was forced to run to first base on a fair batted ball.....just sayin'.

As the play is described, I have R1 safe. When F4 short hopped the batted ball and made the force out at first base on the BR, R1 had the option to continue advancing or return to first base.

There could have been the possibility of a look back rule violation depending on the actions of F1 and R1 while the ball was in the circle.

Whether a force play is "on" or "off" is very important here, as noted by you and others. For that reason, I bring up the fact that there CANNOT be a force out at 1st base on the BR. Only runners can be forced. The BR is never forced at 1st base. While it may be semantics, I bring it up since it was the topic of conversation.

[Comp]

By strict definition, a batter/runner advancing to 1st is not a force out. However, for all practical purposes it is treated exactly the same.