PU calling R1 out for leaving early?

[NEOUA Blue]

PU's call

I usually agree with you Wade, but show me in any manual where it says this is the plate umpire's call. No way, this is PU's call, runners leaving early are always the BU's call.

[NoNothin]

PU's call

I usually agree with you Wade, but show me in any manual where it says this is the plate umpire's call. No way, this is PU's call, runners leaving early are always the BU's call.

A good crew will work together and call everything they can make a good call on. JMHO

NoNo

[wadeintothem]

PU's call

I usually agree with you Wade, but show me in any manual where it says this is the plate umpire's call. No way, this is PU's call, runners leaving early are always the BU's call.

Actually - its both ways on this. Admittedly I cannot find it written anywhere in a 2 man system that this is PU's call.. I equally cannot find it written where its BU's call.

The only time I see 2B/leaving early addressed at all is in a 3 man system. I've checked my ASA, NCAA, and NFHS manuals.. and even in a 3 man system, its not the rabbit's job.

I'm open to debate on this since I dont have any thing in a manual outlaying this call at all.

What do you have that makes this BUs call?

Proper BU positioning with a runner on 2b on this call is shoulders square to home plate - usually some type of ready position - not necessarily set (in ASA) but ready -and in the C position to the left shoulder of F6.

HOW is BU making this call unless the runner leaves VERY early?

[MTR]

PU's call

I usually agree with you Wade, but show me in any manual where it says this is the plate umpire's call. No way, this is PU's call, runners leaving early are always the BU's call.

It is the call of the umpire who observes the violation. It is no more a stretch for the PU to make this call than the PU calling a runner out (on appeal) for leaving 1B early on a caught fly ball to RF with the bases loaded even though it "isn't his call" by the book.

[BearFlagFan]

It is the call of the umpire who observes the violation. It is no more a stretch for the PU to make this call than the PU calling a runner out (on appeal) for leaving 1B early on a caught fly ball to RF with the bases loaded even though it "isn't his call" by the book.

I've taken this as gospel in 2-man, and had that reinforced by an ASA UIC at a state tournament. However, I recently had a very senior ASA official rip me for making this call and said I should NEVER make this call as PU even if the runner is halfway down the line. He said to always leave the call to the BU. He viewed this as "showing up" the BU. I didn't mean it that way and was surprised by his stridency on the issue.

My explanation was a) I've never seen that written in 2-ump mechanics; b) the PU has a better view of 2B than the BU. I even calculated it out: Runner and ball are within 2-degrees of view of PU (RHP). A BU standing 25 ft down line and 15 ft off line (5' further than recommended) it's 60 degrees from dead center vision on the ball to the runner-just at the periphery of most people's vision. Add another 25 degrees if you're facing the plate and 10' off baseline as recommended.

Like you I looked for written guidance and found nothing for 2-ump. Until he retires or it's spelled out in the ASA manual, I will do as he requests. But it seems to place saving face over getting it right.

[PDad]

Holy thread resurrection, BearFlagFan! Kudos for successfully finding this 5-year-old thread.

[BearFlagFan]

Holy thread resurrection, BearFlagFan! Kudos for successfully finding this 5-year-old thread.

I looked for something more recent on the topic and couldn't find diddly. Some topics are evergreens.

[jonriv]

Isn't the real question do the runner leave early or not? Not who made the call?

[BearFlagFan]

Isn't the real question do the runner leave early or not? Not who made the call?

No that question is moot as it's the umpire's judgment. BigDaddy77 didn't even dispute the runner leaving early, simply asking "how" the PU could make that call as it's normally called by the BU. Subsequent posts described how the PU can in fact make that call, and the discussion advanced about the proper mechanics of the call. Where I picked up the thread the question hinges on what are the proper mechanics for the PU and BU in a 2-ump system.

ASA mechanics (which HS associations generally follow) clearly spells out who is responsible for runners leaving early in a 3-ump system, and it's either the 1U or 3U - never the PU. An example of a defined mechanic determining who makes the call: R1 at 2B so BU is standing between 2B and 3B on the 2B side of F6. B2 hits grounder to F5, who fields it and throws to F3. F3 must stretch to catch the ball. Throw beats the runner. This call is ALWAYS made by BU-it's the mechanic. But let's say F3 pulled her foot but BU couldn't see it from the angle and distance. PU did see it. In this instance the mechanic says the PU stays silent and wait for either the defense to appeal OR the BU can ask for help. If neither happens the out stands and play continues.

But nothing is spelled out in a 2-ump system about a runner leaving too soon before the pitch. There are lots of these unwritten rules/protocols/courtesies. You pick these up in mechanics clinics, experience and peer discussions like Umpire Corner. Not everything is universally taught or embraced which is why these gray areas exist. This is clearly one of them - some BUs feel they are being shown up or usurped by the PU in this scenario because of past practice. I've had PUs make that call while I was the BU and I took it as the PU had a better view, as I've been the PU making that call.

But when I have one of the top-ranked ASA officials telling me that was wrong and to never, ever, ever as the PU call a runner out for leaving too early in a 2-ump game, that's info worth sharing and discussing.

[MTR]

But when I have one of the top-ranked ASA officials telling me that was wrong and to never, ever, ever as the PU call a runner out for leaving too early in a 2-ump game, that's info worth sharing and discussing.

I would love to know of whom you are referring as s/he is absolutely wrong. An umpire is NEVER told, or SHOULD NEVER BE told to ignore a violation because it is someone else's responsibility. I can run a pretty good resume myself, including conducting an ASA state schools for over a decade and have been a clinician at all levels, and an umpire who sees an obvious and in this case serious violation and does not call it is doing a disservice to the teams, partners and the game of softball.

Please understand, I am not talking about a ticky-tack call or something the umpire had to be watching for to see, In spite of where an umpire is positioned on the field, it is never possible to cover all the angles and not unlikely each umpire has a different view. As was referred to earlier, MUCH EARLIER in this thread, it is going to be something so egregious that it draws the umpire's attention. It happens, been there, done that, even on the floor of the HOF Stadium.

Just as with a PU taking the tag-up of a trailing runner @ 1B because s/he is looking through that area of the field, the runner on 2B is in the PU's line of view. And by no means am I suggesting this is a call a PU should take lightly and can pretty much guarantee that this was something the umpire just could not miss.

I can tell you that an umpire who obviously has seen a violation and bails on it to the coach of the offended team by claiming "it's not my call" (and I'm not referring to not accepting an appeal or argument over another umpire's call) may very well lose any integrity with that team, if not both.

While umpires must operate together and have each other's back, they are still there to officiate the ball game, all of the game, not just the portion on their part of the field.