Dropped Third

[PDad]

Is there another rule besides 8-5-M being considered here? I'm not following how the discussion of disadvantaged and whom is at fault applies to 8-5-M. Please explain.

ASA 8-5-M When a ball gets lodged in : 1. Umpires gear or clothing or 2. In an offensive players clothing. Effect: The ball is dead and the umpire should award the runners the bases the runners would have reached.

[BearFlagFan]

Is there another rule besides 8-5-M being considered here? I'm not following how the discussion of disadvantaged and whom is at fault applies to 8-5-M. Please explain.

ASA 8-5-M When a ball gets lodged in : 1. Umpires gear or clothing or 2. In an offensive players clothing. Effect: The ball is dead and the umpire should award the runners the bases the runners would have reached.

This is a case where the umpire (assuming sound judgment) made the right ruling but cited the wrong rule. The umpire fell back on a trusty stand-by, which is to not make any ruling that would put one side or the other at a disadvantage (which is the term used in NFHS Intent of Rules). ASA has 10-3-C about putting the other team in "jeopardy" which in this context is synonymous with disadvantage.

The umpire believed that, had the ball not lodged in the ball bag, the runner would have been thrown out. Maybe the batter-runner was camped in the batters box. In his mind BR would have been out. PU can reach that same conclusion in 8-5-M.

[Comp]

10-3-C is not even a consideration on this play, it is specifically covered by 8-5-M, 10-3-C is for reversal of a call or delay of making a callby the umpire puting the defense or a runner in jeapordy.

[BearFlagFan]

10-3-C is not even a consideration on this play, it is specifically covered by 8-5-M, 10-3-C is for reversal of a call or delay of making a callby the umpire puting the defense or a runner in jeapordy.

Yes, the original play is governed by 8-5-M. I agreed with you Comp several posts ago. I also agreed with you that 8-5-M let's me put the BR on 1B and that's what I'd likely do. That question is (or should be) settled.

Please re-read my last post. I'm responding to PDad's question about where the original umpire cited disadvantage and asking for the source rule on that.

When an umpire usually comes up with that language, it's about 10-3-C (which I said was wrong). Or "Intent of Rules" in NFHS as the original query doesn't specify code level. Or general umpiring philosophy which has no rule citation.

For whatever reason the PU on the scene didn't think BR could make 1B. Maybe he didn't know the rule. All I know is PU, BY RULE, could also call the BR out if, in his judgment, BR would not have attained 1B in time if the ball hadn't dropped in the umpire's bag.

[PDad]

Please re-read my last post. I'm responding to PDad's question about where the original umpire cited disadvantage and asking for the source rule on that.

Actually, I was asking why Comp and MTR were discussing it after Comp posted it was an incorrect explanation for the ump's call.

[BearFlagFan]

Please re-read my last post. I'm responding to PDad's question about where the original umpire cited disadvantage and asking for the source rule on that.

Actually, I was asking why Comp and MTR were discussing it after Comp posted it was an incorrect explanation for the ump's call.

Ah. A clear example why they're taking intent out of the rule book as much as possible.

The rule deciding this play is 8-5-M. The PU didn't cite 8-5-M. But the outcome could be correct if the PU had recalled 8-5-M and decided BR couldn't make 1B anyway. It's the PU's judgment where the BR ends up if the ball had just bounced off the ball bag instead of landing in it.

[Comp]

Is there another rule besides 8-5-M being considered here? I'm not following how the discussion of disadvantaged and whom is at fault applies to 8-5-M. Please explain.

ASA 8-5-M When a ball gets lodged in : 1. Umpires gear or clothing or 2. In an offensive players clothing. Effect: The ball is dead and the umpire should award the runners the bases the runners would have reached.

No there is no other rule for this situation, it is covered completely by 8-5-M. The umpire in the OP appears to be citing 10-3-C for his call which is what I disagreed with. If in his judgement the batter would not have been safe then the out would still have been valid, but not for the reason he cited. MTR can correct me if I am wrong, but I was merely stating the ball ended up in the umpires ball bag because of actions by the defense and MTR brought up that the offense also played a part in it by swinging at a ball in the dirt.

[PDad]

Is there another rule besides 8-5-M being considered here? I'm not following how the discussion of disadvantaged and whom is at fault applies to 8-5-M. Please explain.

ASA 8-5-M When a ball gets lodged in : 1. Umpires gear or clothing or 2. In an offensive players clothing. Effect: The ball is dead and the umpire should award the runners the bases the runners would have reached.

No there is no other rule for this situation, it is covered completely by 8-5-M. The umpire in the OP appears to be citing 10-3-C for his call which is what I disagreed with. If in his judgement the batter would not have been safe then the out would still have been valid, but not for the reason he cited. MTR can correct me if I am wrong, but I was merely stating the ball ended up in the umpires ball bag because of actions by the defense and MTR brought up that the offense also played a part in it by swinging at a ball in the dirt.

Okay, thank you very much for answering my question.