Umpire refuses to get help

[carolinafan]

I was at a ball game today and R1 is on second. bunt laid down to 3B and she sees R1 far off the base, so she starts to run at her and then throws to 2B. R1 reverses direction and the 2B tags R1 going to third. BU calls R1 safe but was way out of position on play trying to keep up with rundown. Def. coaches ask politely for the BU at third to get help from PU or other BU (three blues doing game). 3rd base umpire refuses to get help. NO OUTS and runners on 2 and 3......Pitcher Ks next two girls attempting to bunt/hit. Next girl up hits a single and we go down 1-0. Pitcher gets a ground ball to get out of the inning. When teams change, the Plate Umpire comes up to our head coach and asks quietly if he asked for help. He says yes but the BU refuses. PU then says she was out. WTF!!!!!! We ended up losing 3-2 in ITB.

[Jalamander]

3rd base umpire refuses to get help

It is a judgement call and it is the BU's prerogative to go for help. That being said, if an umpire is out of position to make a call, you would hope he would be more open to ask for help.

Plate Umpire comes up to our head coach and asks quietly if he asked for help. He says yes but the BU refuses. PU then says she was out.

Wow! He just threw his partner under the bus. but, hey, he won some points from the coach. You would think that he shoulda just gone out to his partner and insist he change his call...but, the rule book says don't do that...and he's all for following rules.

Jalamander

[DunninLA]

same question about BLue getting help, but different game.

USA vs. Australia on the USA Cup last week.

Australia batter looks like she checks her swing. Replays seem to confirm this. Plate Umpire calls her 3rd strike. Australia coach goes ballistic. As the teams are entering/exiting dugouts, and the plate blue is getting a couple of fresh balls out of the ball feeder, Australia coach gets in his face. It is all miked and played on TV. Coach asks why Plate Umpire did not get help from base blue positioned behind 3rd base. Plate Umpire says he didn't need help.

In my opinion not only did the Plate Umpire blow the call, but worse, he was so arrogant as to not get help on a play 95% of Plate Umpires request help on. In my opinion, Plate Umpire is axiomatically OUT OF POSITION to make a call on a close check swing. If there is a base blue on 1st for a right handed batter, or 3rd on a left handed batter, is there any reason Plate Umpire would not, as a matter of course, get help on a check swing?

What say you?

[Jalamander]

same question about BLue getting help, but different game.
USA vs. Australia on the USA Cup last week.

I saw the game and, like you, felt the PU should have gone for help. It is better to call a ball on a close, questionable check-swing and ask for help.
Again, it is his prerogative. The call of ball or strike, swing/no swing is a judgement call. Evidently, he felt he had enough information to say the batter offered at the pitch. I wouldn't call it arrogance.
I'm used to a 2-man crew when calling games. Often times I have to make a close check-swing call because my partner is not in position. So, if I were to step into a 3-man or 4-man situation, I may forget sometimes that I have a partner in position and make the call myself. I'm not arrogant. I'm just falling back on what I normally do. Can't tell you whether that PU did this. I'm just looking at if from a perspective that we're all out there trying to do the best we can....hoping and praying we don't screw up with a million people watching us.

Jalamander

[MTR]

same question about BLue getting help, but different game.

USA vs. Australia on the USA Cup last week.

Australia batter looks like she checks her swing. Replays seem to confirm this. Plate Umpire calls her 3rd strike. Australia coach goes ballistic. As the teams are entering/exiting dugouts, and the plate blue is getting a couple of fresh balls out of the ball feeder, Australia coach gets in his face. It is all miked and played on TV. Coach asks why Plate Umpire did not get help from base blue positioned behind 3rd base. Plate Umpire says he didn't need help.

In my opinion not only did the Plate Umpire blow the call, but worse, he was so arrogant as to not get help on a play 95% of Plate Umpires request help on. In my opinion, Plate Umpire is axiomatically OUT OF POSITION to make a call on a close check swing. If there is a base blue on 1st for a right handed batter, or 3rd on a left handed batter, is there any reason Plate Umpire would not, as a matter of course, get help on a check swing?

What say you?

The umpire should not have went for help. Once he calls it a strike, the umpire CANNOT go for help.

Since to call a strike an umpire must see the strike, when calling it a strike, he basically already declared in his judgment the batter did swing.

I did not agree with the call, but once called a strike, it stays a strike.

[Crabby_Bob]

same question about BLue getting help, but different game.

USA vs. Australia on the USA Cup last week.

Australia batter looks like she checks her swing. Replays seem to confirm this. Plate Umpire calls her 3rd strike. Australia coach goes ballistic. As the teams are entering/exiting dugouts, and the plate blue is getting a couple of fresh balls out of the ball feeder, Australia coach gets in his face. It is all miked and played on TV. Coach asks why Plate Umpire did not get help from base blue positioned behind 3rd base. Plate Umpire says he didn't need help.

In my opinion not only did the Plate Umpire blow the call, but worse, he was so arrogant as to not get help on a play 95% of Plate Umpires request help on. In my opinion, Plate Umpire is axiomatically OUT OF POSITION to make a call on a close check swing. If there is a base blue on 1st for a right handed batter, or 3rd on a left handed batter, is there any reason Plate Umpire would not, as a matter of course, get help on a check swing?

What say you?

I've never seen blue go for help on a check swing called strike. If he has doubt, better to call it a ball and catch will ask as a matter of routine.

[Jalamander]

I've never seen blue go for help on a check swing called strike. If he has doubt, better to call it a ball and catch will ask as a matter of routine.

That's because you don't do that.

ASA Rules Supplement #10.
A check swing request happens only when the PU calls a ball. The defense, and only the defense, may request the PU go for help. This is not an appeal. It is simply a request. If request is granted the BU will return a signal.
Because only the defense can request PU go for help, there is no way they would request help to change a strike into a ball.

(Edited to add):
I actually had an OM come up to me after I had called a strike on a check-swing. He says, 'Blue, I don't think she swung. Can you get some help on that?' I said, 'Coach, only the defense can request help. I'll ask the catcher. If she requests help, I'll go to my partner.' I look down to the catcher, who was listening in on the conversation, and said, 'Catch. You want me to go for some help on that?' She looked up and said, 'Uh, No!' The coach just shook his head and went back to the dugout.

Jalamander

[Jalamander]

The umpire should not have went for help. Once he calls it a strike, the umpire CANNOT go for help.

Since to call a strike an umpire must see the strike, when calling it a strike, he basically already declared in his judgment the batter did swing.

I did not agree with the call, but once called a strike, it stays a strike.

Agree.

As I listened to the telecast, I believe the coach was telling the PU that he shouldn't have called a strike on such a close check-swing. He should have called it a ball and then gone for help. PU you told the coach if he needed help he would have asked for help, but it wasn't necessary because he saw a strike. I don't believe the coach was telling the PU he should have gone for help after he'd already called the strike. He wanted the PU to go for help instead of calling the strike.

[Crabby_Bob]

I've never seen blue go for help on a check swing called strike. If he has doubt, better to call it a ball and catch will ask as a matter of routine.

That's because you don't do that.

ASA Rules Supplement #10.
A check swing request happens only when the PU calls a ball. [...]
Jalamander

The OP claimed to have seen it.

There is nothing in the RS to preclude a request for help being granted when BU is out of position. I'm thinking of 2-man, no runners, left-hand batter, or, runner on third, right-hand batter. Is there anything else to preclude granting such a request based on BU position? If asked as BU, which is the most difficult to judge? Thanks. (Liked your story )

[Jalamander]

The OP claimed to have seen it.

I don’t understand what OP you are talking about.
The Original Post (OP) concerned a BU giving a safe call on a tag of R1 going to 3rd base. After the inning was over the PU approached the coach and told him the way he saw it was, it should have been called an out.

If you are talking about the quote within your post, the originator of that post was DunninLA who watched the USA vs Australia softball game on TV. I too watched the game.
DunninLA’s discussion was pertaining to the Australia coach complaining to the PU that he should not have called a strike on a very close check-swing. The Australia coach said the PU has 3 BUs in the field and he should have gone to one of them for help. PU told the Australia coach he didn’t go for help because it was not necessary. He saw a strike and called a strike.
I believe there was a mix-up in some of the posts. The coach wasn’t saying, after the called strike the PU should have gone to a BU for help. I believe the coach was saying on such a close check-swing the PU should have called it a ball and then gone to a BU for help.

There is nothing in the RS to preclude a request for help being granted when BU is out of position. I'm thinking of 2-man, no runners, left-hand batter, or, runner on third, right-hand batter. Is there anything else to preclude granting such a request based on BU position? If asked as BU, which is the most difficult to judge?

In ASA and LL a PU does not have to go for help, even when asked. RS #10 states “the umpire should ONLY ask for help if there is doubt in their mind as to whether or not the batter swung at the pitched ball.” It doesn’t matter what position the BU is in, the PU doesn’t have to ask for help.
In NFHS, some say, on a check-swing, upon request, the PU must ask for help. Others say, the PU doesn’t have to go for help, even when asked. The NFHS umpire manual says “If in doubt, ask for help”. Our local umpire association has told all us, when asked, go for help, period.
That being said, it doesn’t matter what position A,B,C or D the BU may be in, he may be called upon to make a call on a check-swing. I would think, obviously, B and C are the most difficult positions to rule on a check-swing.

Jalamander