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You Make the Call 6/6/15

Rule question? Get it answered here.

by jtat32 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:53 pm

PDad wrote:
Mark H wrote:Runners at second are already retired when they slide in hard to break up a double play so I can't take that as a blanket truth.

There is a difference between MLB and softball rules. MLB allows retired runners to go after fielders as long as the runner is within reach of the base. Most softball rulesets are more restrictive. Their rules about retired runners, as covered in several discussions by umpires, recognize they can't magically disappear, so they're protected as long as they're going for the base.

It's only INT if the fielder had a play on another runner (i.e. a double play) and it's clear INT prevented them from doing it. I expect it's like batter INT where many umpires only call it when the fielder actually attempts the throw.


Herein lies the issue with regard to these rules - there may be an absolute right answer, but from a practical standpoint, there are many varying interpretations/misconceptions by umps, coaches, and players. To a certain degree, it also seems to vary by age group, environment, and probably by region. I would bet that coaching and/or player misconceptions were at the core of this incident, not any malicious intent. It's impossible to tell, but that's were I would put my money.

I'll stick with coaching my players to avoid contact on both sides of the ball whenever possible. Maybe that's not the best coaching, but the potential risk side of me or my players getting it wrong outweigh the possible benefits in my mind. At least at the level we are currently at.
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by Mark H » Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:59 pm

PDad wrote:
Mark H wrote:Runners at second are already retired when they slide in hard to break up a double play so I can't take that as a blanket truth.

There is a difference between MLB and softball rules. MLB allows retired runners to go after fielders as long as the runner is within reach of the base. Most softball rulesets are more restrictive. Their rules about retired runners, as covered in several discussions by umpires, recognize they can't magically disappear, so they're protected as long as they're going for the base.

It's only INT if the fielder had a play on another runner (i.e. a double play) and it's clear INT prevented them from doing it. I expect it's like batter INT where many umpires only call it when the fielder actually attempts the throw.


MLB down to youth baseball actually.

If my runner can't slide across the bag or the base she can't disappear. If the catcher is standing on the plate without a play, that's poor coaching on her coach's part. Don't stand on the plate or bag the runner is supposed to slide across and be surprised at contact. IF fp rules disallow that then chalk that up to one more case of treating females like delicate flowers rather than athletes.
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by fastpitchdad05 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:32 pm

Mark H wrote:
PDad wrote:
Mark H wrote:Runners at second are already retired when they slide in hard to break up a double play so I can't take that as a blanket truth.

There is a difference between MLB and softball rules. MLB allows retired runners to go after fielders as long as the runner is within reach of the base. Most softball rulesets are more restrictive. Their rules about retired runners, as covered in several discussions by umpires, recognize they can't magically disappear, so they're protected as long as they're going for the base.

It's only INT if the fielder had a play on another runner (i.e. a double play) and it's clear INT prevented them from doing it. I expect it's like batter INT where many umpires only call it when the fielder actually attempts the throw.


MLB down to youth baseball actually.

If my runner can't slide across the bag or the base she can't disappear. If the catcher is standing on the plate without a play, that's poor coaching on her coach's part. Don't stand on the plate or bag the runner is supposed to slide across and be surprised at contact. IF fp rules disallow that then chalk that up to one more case of treating females like delicate flowers rather than athletes.


If I remember the play correctly the catcher was at least a few feet up the 1st base line when the runner slid into home with her left leg extended awkwardly out in order to sweep the catcher.

Illegal, classless play and unfortunately one of several displayed by that team that day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kr24G8jQpM
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by PDad » Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:49 pm

Mark H wrote:
PDad wrote:
Mark H wrote:Runners at second are already retired when they slide in hard to break up a double play so I can't take that as a blanket truth.

There is a difference between MLB and softball rules. MLB allows retired runners to go after fielders as long as the runner is within reach of the base. Most softball rulesets are more restrictive. Their rules about retired runners, as covered in several discussions by umpires, recognize they can't magically disappear, so they're protected as long as they're going for the base.

It's only INT if the fielder had a play on another runner (i.e. a double play) and it's clear INT prevented them from doing it. I expect it's like batter INT where many umpires only call it when the fielder actually attempts the throw.

MLB down to youth baseball actually.

Prove it. Definitely not NFHS...

ART. 2 . . . Any runner is out when he:
b. does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play, or on a force play, does not slide in a direct line between the bases; or
1. A runner may slide in a direction away from the fielder to avoid making contact or altering the play of the fielder.


If my runner can't slide across the bag or the base she can't disappear. WTF are you trying to say? If the catcher is standing on the plate without a play, that's poor coaching on her coach's part. Don't stand on the plate or bag the runner is supposed to slide across and be surprised at contact. IF fp rules disallow that then chalk that up to one more case of treating females like delicate flowers rather than athletes.

We're talking about retired runners going after the fielder away from the base/plate. Try to stay on the topic.
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by Mark H » Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:13 pm

Forgive me if I missed the thread moving off the topic of the op. If we are talking about runners going out of their way to slide into a fielder there seems little to discuss beyond the obvious.
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by PDad » Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:04 pm

Okay, If you're curious, here's the play we were discussing...

Dugout Dad wrote:... Here is a highlight video of the championship game, go to :27, check out the catcher take-out by the other team.

https://youtu.be/nIMXNQL37TQ

When I originally looked at the slide frame-by-frame on rowvid.com, I thought it was legal because she went feet first. I looked at it again after reading FPD05's post and he may be right about sweeping the catcher's legs.

Here are the NFHS rules (2011) regarding slides.

ART. 1 . . . Legal Slide. A legal slide may be either feet first or head first. If a runner slides feet first, at least one leg and buttock shall be on the ground. If a runner slides, the runner shall be within reach of the base with either hand or a foot when the slide is completed.
ART. 2 . . . Illegal Slide. A slide is illegal if:
a. the runner uses a rolling or cross-body slide into the fielder;
b. the runner's raised leg is higher than the fielder's knee when the fielder is in a standing position;
c. the runner goes beyond the base and makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder;
d. the runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg; or
e. the runner tries to injure the fielder.


Legal or Illegal?
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by fastpitchdad05 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:29 pm

PDad wrote:Okay, If you're curious, here's the play we were discussing...

Dugout Dad wrote:... Here is a highlight video of the championship game, go to :27, check out the catcher take-out by the other team.

https://youtu.be/nIMXNQL37TQ

When I originally looked at the slide frame-by-frame on rowvid.com, I thought it was legal because she went feet first. I looked at it again after reading FPD05's post and he may be right about sweeping the catcher's legs.

Here are the NFHS rules (2011) regarding slides.

ART. 1 . . . Legal Slide. A legal slide may be either feet first or head first. If a runner slides feet first, at least one leg and buttock shall be on the ground. If a runner slides, the runner shall be within reach of the base with either hand or a foot when the slide is completed.
ART. 2 . . . Illegal Slide. A slide is illegal if:
a. the runner uses a rolling or cross-body slide into the fielder;
b. the runner's raised leg is higher than the fielder's knee when the fielder is in a standing position;
c. the runner goes beyond the base and makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder;
d. the runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg; or
e. the runner tries to injure the fielder.


Legal or Illegal?


We're all in trouble if we're counting on me to be right! :lol:

And PDad, it's a glorious day on the Bucket when you feel compelled to (almost) say I'm right. :D
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by Mark H » Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:44 pm

PDad wrote:Okay, If you're curious, here's the play we were discussing...

Dugout Dad wrote:... Here is a highlight video of the championship game, go to :27, check out the catcher take-out by the other team.

https://youtu.be/nIMXNQL37TQ

When I originally looked at the slide frame-by-frame on rowvid.com, I thought it was legal because she went feet first. I looked at it again after reading FPD05's post and he may be right about sweeping the catcher's legs.

Here are the NFHS rules (2011) regarding slides.

ART. 1 . . . Legal Slide. A legal slide may be either feet first or head first. If a runner slides feet first, at least one leg and buttock shall be on the ground. If a runner slides, the runner shall be within reach of the base with either hand or a foot when the slide is completed.
ART. 2 . . . Illegal Slide. A slide is illegal if:
a. the runner uses a rolling or cross-body slide into the fielder;
b. the runner's raised leg is higher than the fielder's knee when the fielder is in a standing position;
c. the runner goes beyond the base and makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder;
d. the runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg; or
e. the runner tries to injure the fielder.


Legal or Illegal?


Questionable for sure. I'd have to go with the ump who was looking down on it from above.
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by fastpitchdad05 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:11 pm

Mark H wrote:
PDad wrote:Okay, If you're curious, here's the play we were discussing...

Dugout Dad wrote:... Here is a highlight video of the championship game, go to :27, check out the catcher take-out by the other team.

https://youtu.be/nIMXNQL37TQ

When I originally looked at the slide frame-by-frame on rowvid.com, I thought it was legal because she went feet first. I looked at it again after reading FPD05's post and he may be right about sweeping the catcher's legs.

Here are the NFHS rules (2011) regarding slides.

ART. 1 . . . Legal Slide. A legal slide may be either feet first or head first. If a runner slides feet first, at least one leg and buttock shall be on the ground. If a runner slides, the runner shall be within reach of the base with either hand or a foot when the slide is completed.
ART. 2 . . . Illegal Slide. A slide is illegal if:
a. the runner uses a rolling or cross-body slide into the fielder;
b. the runner's raised leg is higher than the fielder's knee when the fielder is in a standing position;
c. the runner goes beyond the base and makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder;
d. the runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg; or
e. the runner tries to injure the fielder.


Legal or Illegal?


Questionable for sure. I'd have to go with the ump who was looking down on it from above.


Unfortunately Mark, the rest of us can't wait for that judgement.
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by as the world turns » Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:58 pm

fastpitchdad05 wrote:
Mark H wrote:
PDad wrote:Okay, If you're curious, here's the play we were discussing...

Dugout Dad wrote:... Here is a highlight video of the championship game, go to :27, check out the catcher take-out by the other team.

https://youtu.be/nIMXNQL37TQ

When I originally looked at the slide frame-by-frame on rowvid.com, I thought it was legal because she went feet first. I looked at it again after reading FPD05's post and he may be right about sweeping the catcher's legs.

Here are the NFHS rules (2011) regarding slides.

ART. 1 . . . Legal Slide. A legal slide may be either feet first or head first. If a runner slides feet first, at least one leg and buttock shall be on the ground. If a runner slides, the runner shall be within reach of the base with either hand or a foot when the slide is completed.
ART. 2 . . . Illegal Slide. A slide is illegal if:
a. the runner uses a rolling or cross-body slide into the fielder;
b. the runner's raised leg is higher than the fielder's knee when the fielder is in a standing position;
c. the runner goes beyond the base and makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder;
d. the runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg; or
e. the runner tries to injure the fielder.


Legal or Illegal?


Questionable for sure. I'd have to go with the ump who was looking down on it from above.


Unfortunately Mark, the rest of us can't wait for that judgement.

The same ump that missed both catcher elbow cheap shots certainly missed the interference slide at home. Surprised Battle has not defended this ump.
“Life is hard; it's harder if you're stupid.” John Wayne
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