Warning or Ejection

[ice_67]

12U Triple Crown tourney, BR hits a grounder to F3. F3 fields ball and tags BR out as she is running up the line. As the tag is being made, BR throws left elbow up and hits F3. Base Ump gives warning to BR. At the end of the game I ask BU why she didn't eject player. I ask her what the rule book says and she says ejection, but she says she gives warnings because player is only doing what her coach taught her. When should umps give warnings?

[wadeintothem]

I'd have to see that to know what I thought about it. To eject without warning would require gross unsportsmanlike conduct or malicious contact. Its not first on the list of actions in the VAST majority of instances. The only 12U player I've ever ejected was for destroying a catcher without sliding (pete rose style)... and she blew her up very good... in fact one of the biggest collisions I've ever seen at any level of Softball.

The minor things.. bah.

And in ASA there is nothing that says we must eject a player without warning for an errant elbow on a play at 1B. That is a judgment call in which many factors are considered..

For TC.. dunno. Maybe they have to eject.

[umpire778]

As any umpire will tell you, we would have to have seen the play to know if it should warrent a warning or an ejection. Their is nothing in the book that says you have to give a warning before an ejection can be made. Don't know why the runner was raising her elbow, but if in the umpires judgement it was intentional to cause harm then you should eject. If it was unintentional then a warning is fine. It's a fine line but you have to use your judgement and apply which one you think should be given in that situation.

[ice_67]

Let's be clear. The BR raised her elbow to "hit" F3. Intent was seen. Both by our team and the BU. She was trying to dislodge the ball by elbowing F3. It wasn't a train wreck or collision. it was a throw an elbow up at the last second to hit F3.

[umpinva]

Let's be clear. The BR raised her elbow to "hit" F3. Intent was seen. Both by our team and the BU. She was trying to dislodge the ball by elbowing F3. It wasn't a train wreck or collision. it was a throw an elbow up at the last second to hit F3.

Comes down to judgment. As you have described, the BR raised her elbow to dislodge the ball. In your judgment do you think there was intent to hurt F3? If harm was intended I would eject without a warning. No intent to harm, give the BR a warning and make sure her coach is aware of the warning also.

[wadeintothem]

Let's be clear. The BR raised her elbow to "hit" F3. Intent was seen. Both by our team and the BU. She was trying to dislodge the ball by elbowing F3. It wasn't a train wreck or collision. it was a throw an elbow up at the last second to hit F3.

I guess we can keep expanding the scenario until you get to hear the BU should have ejected the BR.

In terms of my initial response, nothing changes. If I saw something flagrant warranting an ejection, I would eject without hesitation. Frankly, I dont know that this qualifies. It COULD, but I just dont know based on what you think you saw. My gut reaction is that a warning is probably sufficient for a first offense by a team doing this. If it happened again or started to get out of hand, i'd probably toss the player, and who knows, maybe even the coach for good measure.

The biggest error I see is that BU allowing herself to be talked into a corner by a coach on a strictly umpire judgment call.

[MTR]

ASA mentions a derivative of the word "warn" nineteen times and all are based on rules violations, not unsportsmanlike conduct.

USC is USC and I don't care who, how, why or where it occurred, the player should ALWAYS be ejected.

No warning, no side conversations with the coach, just dump the player. If the coach wants to argue that "there was no warning" or that it's just part of the game, dump the coach, too, as they are detrimental to the game and players involved.

Physical intimidation that could result in ANYONE getting injured is not part of the game and should not be tolerated under any guise.

And if you think my opinion is harsh, how would you feel if it was you or your daughter was on the receiving end and landed in the hospital?

[wadeintothem]

meanie.


Nothing changes what I said though.. and warnings are certainly taught at clinic, including NUS and appropriate in many circumstances... as you are aware (even if you may or may not agree). Furthermore 10.1 gives us that authority.

Its not a question of whether you eject for USC, the question is whether it IS USC...or maybe just.. extra effort that they need to chill out on...?? an elbow coming up and a parent running around saying "she tried to elbow my poor lil DD on purpose to make her miss the ball" on a banger at 1B does not make it USC.

I'd have to see it to know if it was worthy of an INT.. then taking it further a warning (gray area stuff) ejection (some flagrant misconduct), or maybe even nothing.

[ice_67]

Wade,

I don't remember ever saying that a parent was running around complaining about their DD getting elbowed. And it wasn't a "banger", F3 fielded ball cleanly took 2 or 3 steps and tagged BR.

Maybe next time we play this team and they elbow us we plunk the next batter and hopefully only get a warning. I think that's what MTR was alluding to, that this type of behavior could escalate.

[Kat]

Wade,

I don't remember ever saying that a parent was running around complaining about their DD getting elbowed. And it wasn't a "banger", F3 fielded ball cleanly took 2 or 3 steps and tagged BR.

Maybe next time we play this team and they elbow us we plunk the next batter and hopefully only get a warning. I think that's what MTR was alluding to, that this type of behavior could escalate.

This is the result of an umpire, referee etc. If something is not done to keep people in order. People will end up doing the discipline.