Warning or Ejection

[wadeintothem]

Wade,

I don't remember ever saying that a parent was running around complaining about their DD getting elbowed. And it wasn't a "banger", F3 fielded ball cleanly took 2 or 3 steps and tagged BR.

Maybe next time we play this team and they elbow us we plunk the next batter and hopefully only get a warning. I think that's what MTR was alluding to, that this type of behavior could escalate.

Youre not going to get an ejection of a player every time you want one, especially at 12U. MTR is and always will be consistent that USC is an ejection... because IT IS the rule. I'm not sold this was USC... in fact, I'm convinced this was a gray area thing, that probably walked the line, and you'd probably rarely get an ejection out of it. I've seen this stuff over and over. Especially on a tag play. This could have even been a defensive raising of an elbow due to an aggressive tag... i've seen tags crush people, bloody their face, etc..as a result some kids instinctively protect themselves, so I dont know.

I do know:
1. you are biased in what you saw
2. You present the scenario, adding and changing details with each explaination

obviously upping the ante to get the answer you want to hear. That is the hallmark of a HTBT play, more specifically, a gray area play.

If this was REALLY USC, the coach would have been there talking to the BU and PU immediately and not this johnny come lately talk at the end of the game with a BU placating you at the end of the game for whatever reason. USC glares to all involved.

Now if youre gonna pout and start "plunking" kids because you didnt get an ejection, thats on you. It's usually easier to catch the retaliatory strikes anyway.

If its any comfort to you.. just think, a couple of years she'll be playing HS ball and could have an 1/2 inch metal spike driven into her shin when she is trying to tag someone.. all perfectly legal... no warning or anything. So relax. It gets MUCH rougher the higher she goes.

[MTR]

Nothing changes what I said though.. and warnings are certainly taught at clinic, including NUS and appropriate in many circumstances... as you are aware (even if you may or may not agree). Furthermore 10.1 gives us that authority.

You are correct, there are times for warning, but not when there is no question that a player's action was meant to cause harm to another.

Its not a question of whether you eject for USC, the question is whether it IS USC...or maybe just.. extra effort that they need to chill out on...?? an elbow coming up and a parent running around saying "she tried to elbow my poor lil DD on purpose to make her miss the ball" on a banger at 1B does not make it USC.

The OP indicates nothing, but a thrown elbow. There is no running mechanic that causes the lifting of an elbow that could be confused for a thrown elbow by anyone who has been around the game for any period of time.

I'd have to see it to know if it was worthy of an INT.. then taking it further a warning (gray area stuff) ejection (some flagrant misconduct), or maybe even nothing.

A warning for an obvious USC is a cop out by an umpire. And again, this is NOT just part of the game.

[wadeintothem]

Um, would that be a major league "your outta here!" ejection .. or the "pretend me and the coach are talking about the line up top secret ejection"??

I always prefer to send em to the parking lot all by themselves cryin with a big MLB ejection...

[umpinva]

Wade,

I don't remember ever saying that a parent was running around complaining about their DD getting elbowed. And it wasn't a "banger", F3 fielded ball cleanly took 2 or 3 steps and tagged BR.

Maybe next time we play this team and they elbow us we plunk the next batter and hopefully only get a warning. I think that's what MTR was alluding to, that this type of behavior could escalate.

Youre not going to get an ejection of a player every time you want one, especially at 12U. MTR is and always will be consistent that USC is an ejection... because IT IS the rule. I'm not sold this was USC... in fact, I'm convinced this was a gray area thing, that probably walked the line, and you'd probably rarely get an ejection out of it. I've seen this stuff over and over. Especially on a tag play. This could have even been a defensive raising of an elbow due to an aggressive tag... i've seen tags crush people, bloody their face, etc..as a result some kids instinctively protect themselves, so I dont know.

I do know:
1. you are biased in what you saw
2. You present the scenario, adding and changing details with each explaination

obviously upping the ante to get the answer you want to hear. That is the hallmark of a HTBT play, more specifically, a gray area play.

If this was REALLY USC, the coach would have been there talking to the BU and PU immediately and not this johnny come lately talk at the end of the game with a BU placating you at the end of the game for whatever reason. USC glares to all involved.

Now if youre gonna pout and start "plunking" kids because you didnt get an ejection, thats on you. It's usually easier to catch the retaliatory strikes anyway.

If its any comfort to you.. just think, a couple of years she'll be playing HS ball and could have an 1/2 inch metal spike driven into her shin when she is trying to tag someone.. all perfectly legal... no warning or anything. So relax. It gets MUCH rougher the higher she goes.

As long as the slide was judged to be legal by the umpire no warnings or ejections would be necessary. There are rules regarding illegal slides and malicious contact when applicable.

[wadeintothem]

If they are "tough enough" to play dirty than they should be "tough enough" for the consequences.

Funner too!

[Rotatorcuff]

Was this the Field of Dreams tourney in Palm Springs?

We were in a game where this happened. The ump tossed the player. I was keeping score and didn't really understand what happened, but after asking around while getting the scorebook straight, I heard the girl was ejected for thowing up her arm and contacting the first baseman. The plate ump said this had happened earlier and the coach was warned.

I just can't believe a coach teaches this tactic, especially at 12U. That's dirty if you ask me, and should warrant an immediate ejection. If the entire team is doing it, eject the player and the coach.

I think we call this type of play "BUSH LEAGUE".

[BART.SR]

If they are "tough enough" to play dirty than they should be "tough enough" for the consequences.

Funner too!

My thoughts exactly...

[Skarp]

My gut reaction is that a warning is probably sufficient for a first offense by a team doing this. If it happened again or started to get out of hand, i'd probably toss the player, and who knows, maybe even the coach for good measure.

Which explains why scumbag coaches still teach their kids to do it. Hey, if blue doesn't mind you taking a free shot or two to possibly change the outcome of a game, why not?

BTW, I'm dying to learn what constitutes in hand (as opposed to "out of hand") elbow throwing.

[wadeintothem]

My gut reaction is that a warning is probably sufficient for a first offense by a team doing this. If it happened again or started to get out of hand, i'd probably toss the player, and who knows, maybe even the coach for good measure.

Which explains why scumbag coaches still teach their kids to do it. Hey, if blue doesn't mind you taking a free shot or two to possibly change the outcome of a game, why not?

BTW, I'm dying to learn what constitutes in hand (as opposed to "out of hand") elbow throwing.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1352

Stuff happens...

It just depends on what the umpire sees on the play. I would never limit myself by saying "elbow = ejection".

It would depend on what I saw in terms of the whole play.

I see nothing immediately ejectable in that play in the picture.. I wouldnt say an ejection couldnt happen as a result of that play, it would depend on what I saw.. but just in terms of that pic and what I see.. good to go. That stuff happens.

[Skarp]

My gut reaction is that a warning is probably sufficient for a first offense by a team doing this. If it happened again or started to get out of hand, i'd probably toss the player, and who knows, maybe even the coach for good measure.

Which explains why scumbag coaches still teach their kids to do it. Hey, if blue doesn't mind you taking a free shot or two to possibly change the outcome of a game, why not?

BTW, I'm dying to learn what constitutes in hand (as opposed to "out of hand") elbow throwing.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1352

Stuff happens...

It just depends on what the umpire sees on the play. I would never limit myself by saying "elbow = ejection".

It would depend on what I saw in terms of the whole play.

I see nothing immediately ejectable in that play in the picture.. I wouldnt say an ejection couldnt happen as a result of that play, it would depend on what I saw.. but just in terms of that pic and what I see.. good to go. That stuff happens.

I hear you...an ump should ever preclude in advance the use of his own good judgment. Still, if you are predisposed to give at least one warning on cheap shots, then shady observant coaches will probably use that. Better I think to have an extremely low tolerance by default, and then exercise your judgment in favor of lenience when circumstances clearly warrant doing so.