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NCAA defensive shifts vs position changes?

Rule question? Get it answered here.

by Sam » Sat May 27, 2017 3:40 pm

PDad wrote:
Sam wrote:There was no real argument. The rule is clearly intended to cover subsititutions/pitching changes. If not....following the KU reasoning......the argument would be that position 7 or 8 no longer exists.....so the rules would have to create another number for that position.....and the rules don't provide for that.....so a 7 is still a 7, an 8 is still an 8, and a 9 is still a 9.

Read the NCAA rule I posted - 8.3.3 covers all defensive position changes. In the one I witnessed, coach reported the player substitution, but didn't report the sub and another player were swapping defensive positions (neither was pitching).

In OU's case, position 8 still exists. KU's reasoning was F8 and F9 had switched positions without being reported.


It's a ludicrous argument. F8 was playing the hitter one way and F9 was playing the hitter the opposite. My question is what position would the coach report F7 going to? The rule is obviously intended to apply to pitching changes/DPs entering the game and substitutions. The umpires ruled that way because it didn't make a single difference in the game and because the coach would have to make up a new position after F7 vacated LF. Would he report her as F4A?
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by Crabby_Bob » Sun May 28, 2017 8:07 am

NCAA keeps player stats, including fielding.
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by Sam » Sun May 28, 2017 3:54 pm

Crabby_Bob wrote:NCAA keeps player stats, including fielding.


Interesting and irrelevant. If F7 and F4 are manning the right hand side of the infield, is F7 really a shallow F9?

It doesn't matter. Defensive shifting isn't reported in MLB, though it's tracked by scorekeepers. Managers aren't reporting shifts to umpires because it's silly.
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by PDad » Mon May 29, 2017 10:29 am

Sam wrote:
PDad wrote:Read the NCAA rule I posted - 8.3.3 covers all defensive position changes. In the one I witnessed, coach reported the player substitution, but didn't report the sub and another player were swapping defensive positions (neither was pitching).

In OU's case, position 8 still exists. KU's reasoning was F8 and F9 had switched positions without being reported.

It's a ludicrous argument. F8 was playing the hitter one way and F9 was playing the hitter the opposite.

Now THAT is a ludicrous argument. LOL BTW, Clint Myers questioned it in Supers too.

My question is what position would the coach report F7 going to? The rule is obviously intended to apply to pitching changes/DPs entering the game and substitutions.

The only portion questioned was the exchange between F8 and F9. The rest of the players were irrelevant since they were clearly shifted without an exchange. Here's the rule:

6.6.4 A player should not be considered to have changed defensive positions if she does not exchange her fielding position with another player but only temporarily stations herself at a different location on the field (for example, a fourth outfielder or fifth infielder).

I accept UmpSteve's view that the OF exchange in OU's case is viewed as part of the shift. BTW, an explanation for the OF switch is F9 is faster than F8, so they move her to CF in case the ball goes into unattended LF.

NCAA rules state defensive position changes have to be reported (see below) and it is enforced beyond your questionable perceived requirements.
- Why would NCAA care about pitching changes? They don't have courtesy runners.
- DPs ARE IN THE GAME. It's only an issue if Flex is not playing defense.

8.1.2.9 A defensive player is entitled to change to a different defensive position at any time as long as the change is reported to the plate umpire. The plate umpire shall report the change to the official scorer and to the opposing coach before the next pitch.
EFFECT—Failure to report defensive changes to the plate umpire renders the player unreported. (See Rule 8.3.3.)
A.R. 8.1.2: The second baseman is located closer to first base than the first baseman who is playing in and away from the foul line for a slapper. RULING: They are not considered to have different defensive positions; however, if the catcher and first baseman exchange positions, they are considered to be unreported substitutes if the umpire is not notified.


The umpires ruled that way because it didn't make a single difference in the game and because the coach would have to make up a new position after F7 vacated LF. Would he report her as F4A?

Not that it matters - other than provide an another example of your lack of comprehension/memory - F7 moves up onto IF, not over to RF.
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by UmpSteve » Mon May 29, 2017 1:45 pm

For what it is worth, my memory of the reasoning used when the rules first required this type of reporting was that the SID's (Sports Information Director) were driving this as a means to better keep statistical data. They even went so far as to state that scholarship money might be affected if the stats were incorrectly recorded. This reporting, however, only affects assists, putouts, and errors, but that's what they told us back then.

That said, this particular issue seems to be up for revision this go-around (the NCAA only changes rules every other year); it was included in a survey regarding proposed rule changes sent to all coaches and umpires registered with NCAA earlier this spring. Coaches that have mentioned the survey seem to be overwhelmingly in favor of changing these requirements (at least here on the East Coast).

Personally, I think it's been a "gotcha" on a very rare occasion. For the most part, it only serves to slow the game up when there are multiple changes that require extended reporting to the umpire, who then reports all to both the opposing team and the official scorekeeper.

I recently worked a game where the team moved the starting pitcher to F8, F8 to F9, F9 to F7, F7 to F3, F3 to F5, F5 to OP, and DP to pitch. All at one time. A few innings later, they returned the starting pitcher to pitch, and returned the rest of the lineup to their original starting defensive positions. This wasn't a joke, not gaming the system, they considered each version their best defensive setup with that pitcher. We had to stop the game (it was being webcast, in fact), and ultimately I had to call the SID down to the field with a notepad to get it recorded properly. When I watched the webcast later, the commentators had a field day joking about what we went through, then apologized on air later for making light of it once they realized how extensive the changes actually were in each case. The opposing team's book wrote down what I said; then I heard the head coach tell her not to worry if she got it wrong, they simply didn't care who got what assist, and was sure that I reported it right after hearing the complete listing.

Most everyone seems to believe it should be changed this time; guess we will hear later this summer.
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by Sam » Mon May 29, 2017 5:00 pm

PDad proves my point UmpSteve reinforces it. The umpires ruled that coaches get to make defensive shifts without actually changing positions. F7 stays F7. The intent of the badly conceived rule is to report actual substitutions

OBTW: the reasoning provided regarding defensive stats affecting scholarships is hilarious.
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