I was coaching my 8u All Star team this weekend, and in our last game/last at bat, the plate umpire had the wrong count on 3 of my batters in a row. First batter had 3-1 and she swung and missed. Umpire said she was out! I called time and told her i had a different count in my book and she said "NO THE BATTER IS OUT!", (i used caps because yes, the umpire was yelling at me at an 8u game). I then asked the base umpire what he had, and he siad it should be a full count but it was up to the plate umpire to ask him for help. But, she wouldn't ask him for help. Next batter gets 5 straight balls thrown to her before she issues a walk. Again, after the 4th ball i ask her what the deal is and she yells at me again that i have the wrong count! I once again go to the base umpire and he agrees with me but yet the plate umpire STILL won't ask him for help. Finally, same thing happens to my next batter that happened to my first batter and again I go through the same thing and get the same response! After this one i turn to the other teams coach that is keeping the book to ask her if I'm crazy and she proceeds to tell me that she doesn't keep track of balls and strikes!!
1. Are the umpires right in this situation or should the base umpire had stepped in and talked to the plate umpire?
2. Is there some kind of rule that says you have to keep a good book? Especially if you are the home team since that is the book that you revert to in case there is a disagreement?
IN
Any HS coaches, UIC's, or other knowledgeable people please respond
- Wagner
- Posts: 69
- Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:16 pm
1. Priority number 1 with officials should always be, get it right. Do whatever you have to do to get it right, ask your partner, ask the book, whatever. The count is usually a pretty easy fix. Between the PU, BU, and book, two of them will have the same thing, three if you include both books.
2. You hear all kinds of goofy stuff regarding getting help from a partner. It's basically at the umpire's discretion. Back in the day, if I thought my partner could help, I would usually grant the request. If it was a question of judgement or I didn't think they could help, I would not grant the request. Also keep in mind, in some circles, there's a code, you never show up your partner, some people deem overturning a call as "showing up".
3. I think there was a USFA tourney in Brownsburg over the weekend, Midwest had something going on, some nationals are going on, so local umpires are wherever doing nationals. I have no idea what NSA, or AFA had going on if anything. Then throw in the usual mix of backyard tournaments going on this time of year, plus umpires who are tired of being gone every weekend all summer, or need to spend some time with the family or for whatever reason need to take a weekend or two off. The gist of this is, I have no idea where you were playing at, but rest assured at 8U you weren't getting the most highly qualified umpires. Was this an actual umpire or a parent trying to help out, or some kid trying to make some beer and cigarette money? I would gauge my response accordingly. If it is an aspiring umpire after the game I would try to approach them, or the UIC and just explain your side of it. Don't bitch, don't raise your voice, just explain the circumstances.
4. We're all human, we all have bad days, we all make mistakes. This summer in a high school summer league game I had a PU on Thursday who worked the baseball state finals the Saturday before. He's a great baseball umpire, I've seen him work. He's a good Football official, I've seen him work, I've worked with him. But that night he was a HORRIBLE softball umpire. I'm pitching an incoming 8th grader in a varsity game that HAS to live on the edges, my opponent is pitching a younger pitcher, bottom line at the end of 1 the score was 9-7. I have a good relationship with him, and we have mutual respect for each other as officials, I told him after the first inning, you may want to widen it up a little. Being a good official, he did and the game ends up being like 13-9, something like that. I can tell you countless times where a good official made a really bonehead mistake that you wouldn't expect in a million years from them, but it happens. I can assure you too, in most cases, no one feels worse about it than the official who made the mistake.
5. As has been stated many times with the number of kids playing "elite" ball, it gets really watered down. The same can be said with officiating. It takes officials to call all those games and the officiating pool begins to get watered down as well. There are a lot of guys out there who are there to pick up an extra 350 cash for the weekend. They can't make that working a part time gig punching a clock somewhere. When I first began officiating, you were typically hooked up with a more experienced official, you were mentored, and it may be three or four years before you worked a varsity level game. Today it's a different world.
At least we didn't see a report about on you on TV this morning, bravo for handling the situation like an adult.
2. You hear all kinds of goofy stuff regarding getting help from a partner. It's basically at the umpire's discretion. Back in the day, if I thought my partner could help, I would usually grant the request. If it was a question of judgement or I didn't think they could help, I would not grant the request. Also keep in mind, in some circles, there's a code, you never show up your partner, some people deem overturning a call as "showing up".
3. I think there was a USFA tourney in Brownsburg over the weekend, Midwest had something going on, some nationals are going on, so local umpires are wherever doing nationals. I have no idea what NSA, or AFA had going on if anything. Then throw in the usual mix of backyard tournaments going on this time of year, plus umpires who are tired of being gone every weekend all summer, or need to spend some time with the family or for whatever reason need to take a weekend or two off. The gist of this is, I have no idea where you were playing at, but rest assured at 8U you weren't getting the most highly qualified umpires. Was this an actual umpire or a parent trying to help out, or some kid trying to make some beer and cigarette money? I would gauge my response accordingly. If it is an aspiring umpire after the game I would try to approach them, or the UIC and just explain your side of it. Don't bitch, don't raise your voice, just explain the circumstances.
4. We're all human, we all have bad days, we all make mistakes. This summer in a high school summer league game I had a PU on Thursday who worked the baseball state finals the Saturday before. He's a great baseball umpire, I've seen him work. He's a good Football official, I've seen him work, I've worked with him. But that night he was a HORRIBLE softball umpire. I'm pitching an incoming 8th grader in a varsity game that HAS to live on the edges, my opponent is pitching a younger pitcher, bottom line at the end of 1 the score was 9-7. I have a good relationship with him, and we have mutual respect for each other as officials, I told him after the first inning, you may want to widen it up a little. Being a good official, he did and the game ends up being like 13-9, something like that. I can tell you countless times where a good official made a really bonehead mistake that you wouldn't expect in a million years from them, but it happens. I can assure you too, in most cases, no one feels worse about it than the official who made the mistake.
5. As has been stated many times with the number of kids playing "elite" ball, it gets really watered down. The same can be said with officiating. It takes officials to call all those games and the officiating pool begins to get watered down as well. There are a lot of guys out there who are there to pick up an extra 350 cash for the weekend. They can't make that working a part time gig punching a clock somewhere. When I first began officiating, you were typically hooked up with a more experienced official, you were mentored, and it may be three or four years before you worked a varsity level game. Today it's a different world.
At least we didn't see a report about on you on TV this morning, bravo for handling the situation like an adult.
Every man lives by a code:
1.Always look cool
2.Never get lost
3.If you get lost, look cool
1.Always look cool
2.Never get lost
3.If you get lost, look cool
-
slapperdad - Posts: 887
- Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 7:28 pm
FYI, I missed the answer to your second question. This is from the NF rule book, I have no idea what sanctioning body you're playing under, it could vary from one to another.
Rule 9
ART. 2 . . . The scorebook of the home team shall be the official scorebook, unless the plate umpire rules otherwise. The official scorekeeper, as designated by the umpire, shall keep records as outlined in the following rules and has the final authority when judgment is involved in determining whether a batter-runner's advance to first base is the result of an error or of a base hit, and in similar situations.
How's that for vague? I can not find anything in the case book regarding balls and strikes. Nor did I find anything on a cursory scan of the manual.
Rule 9
ART. 2 . . . The scorebook of the home team shall be the official scorebook, unless the plate umpire rules otherwise. The official scorekeeper, as designated by the umpire, shall keep records as outlined in the following rules and has the final authority when judgment is involved in determining whether a batter-runner's advance to first base is the result of an error or of a base hit, and in similar situations.
How's that for vague? I can not find anything in the case book regarding balls and strikes. Nor did I find anything on a cursory scan of the manual.
Every man lives by a code:
1.Always look cool
2.Never get lost
3.If you get lost, look cool
1.Always look cool
2.Never get lost
3.If you get lost, look cool
-
slapperdad - Posts: 887
- Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 7:28 pm
slapper- you are spot on with the quality of the umpires. Turns out the plate umpire is the same umpire from a local town league that we have had problems with all year. I am a true believer that you don't argue ball and strikes. But i think I've chewed a hole through my lip from biting it so much with this umpire all season long!! One can only watch so many balls bounce off the plate and be called strikes 
Unfortunately, with the number of new travel teams on the rise, so will the number of poor quality umpires 
Unfortunately, with the number of new travel teams on the rise, so will the number of poor quality umpires - Wagner
- Posts: 69
- Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:16 pm
It's really a roll of the dice. We've had college umpires that are just awful in my opinion. I see guys who can't get regular gigs who do an outstanding job. The best group as a whole that I have seen in my travels is central Ohio ASA. They do a great job as a whole. Indiana ASA as a whole, has some of the worst. Many years ago went to USSSA nationals in Hutchinson, KS. We had a large number of Big 12 officials, they were outstanding. As I understand it there were a fair number of Big 12 guys/gals at PCB last week.
Every man lives by a code:
1.Always look cool
2.Never get lost
3.If you get lost, look cool
1.Always look cool
2.Never get lost
3.If you get lost, look cool
-
slapperdad - Posts: 887
- Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 7:28 pm
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