Setting limits on how many pitches/innings a girl can pitch

[TZ0204]

I have to ask why girls do not have a limit on how many pitches they can throw in tournaments like boys do in travel ball? I am new to the softball scene so just trying to get some thoughts on this. Thanks!

[happy]

I've seen many "attacks" on parents lately posted on this forum for letting their kids pitch too many innings. Don't be too quick to judge, because there are many variables here. First of all, there has been much research done on the effects of overhand throwing on arm/shoulder health. So much so that USA baseball has come up with a max recommended number depending on age. (For ex, 3000 pitches per year for 13 year old, or 85 per game). Softball pitching, however, is different. The underhand motion is more natural & puts less stress on growing elbows/shoulders. This doesn't mean that there is no limit to how much you can pitch without injury, but not enough research to come up with a number. Secondly, every kid is different. You may have an 11 year old who has gone through puberty and is nearly done growing, and another 11 year old who hasn't. And within that the structure & musculature of the joints are different in each kid. Not to mention, I've seen some pitchers who pitch, warming up, for an hour before going into a game! And others who warm up for 10 minutes. Use common sense, if they look tired, and their arm hurts the next day, they probably pitched too much. But pitching too much for 1 tournament because the team's other pitcher(s) is sick isn't going to destroy an arm, it's what you do over and over on a regular basis.

[happy]

And keep in mind mechanics. A pitcher with good mechanics can throw many more pitches without injury than a pitcher with poor mechanics. Maybe they should make a rule about poor pitching mechanics in tournaments.

[ontheblack]

I've seen many "attacks" on parents lately posted on this forum for letting their kids pitch too many innings. Don't be too quick to judge, because there are many variables here. First of all, there has been much research done on the effects of overhand throwing on arm/shoulder health. So much so that USA baseball has come up with a max recommended number depending on age. (For ex, 3000 pitches per year for 13 year old, or 85 per game). Softball pitching, however, is different. The underhand motion is more natural & puts less stress on growing elbows/shoulders. This doesn't mean that there is no limit to how much you can pitch without injury, but not enough research to come up with a number. Secondly, every kid is different. You may have an 11 year old who has gone through puberty and is nearly done growing, and another 11 year old who hasn't. And within that the structure & musculature of the joints are different in each kid. Not to mention, I've seen some pitchers who pitch, warming up, for an hour before going into a game! And others who warm up for 10 minutes. Use common sense, if they look tired, and their arm hurts the next day, they probably pitched too much. But pitching too much for 1 tournament because the team's other pitcher(s) is sick isn't going to destroy an arm, it's what you do over and over on a regular basis.

The old saying, "Fat, dumb and happy" comes to mind after reading your comments.

There are numerous studies, but since you brought up the comparison between baseball and softball, for your immediate enlightenment, start with Dr. Nikhil Verma. Dr Verma is one of the foremost experts on shoulder and elbow injuries. He is a team doctor for the Chicago White Sox and MLB has funded his research. He has published papers and studies on the injuries inherent in overhand throwing and pitching. If he published a study that showed that windmill pitching also leads to shoulder and elbow injuries, would you listen?

http://www.rushortho.com/nikhil_verma.cfm

Study: Softball pitchers' windmill delivery can cause injury

[02BlazeCoach]

This is a very good article. Thank you for posting. A lot to think about for those of us coaching.

[happy]

Thank you for the compliment. "Fat"- not at all, "Dumb" - I have a Master's in Kinesiology from IU (do you even know what that is?), "Happy" - Alas, don't all of us long to be happy?
I never said there we NO studies, only that there are not ENOUGH for a governing body to make a formal recommendation. I also never said there were no injuries from windmill pitching. (Read closely my 1st comment). I just said you cannot go by the number they gave in baseball, because the factors are different.
As a matter of fact, one study posted in the International Journal of Sports Therapy found that total pitch counts were similar in both injured and non-injured softball pitchers, but that the greatest risk of injury came from shoulder PROM (basically flexibility in the joint tested before the season began) and in pitching mechanics.
My whole point was that more research needs to be done before a pitch count recommendation can be set. But obviously you feel that your knowledge and your sources are enough.
Don't bother replying, as I'm done with Heybucket.

[slapperdad]

Although I know there's not direct link, a lot of the new limits being placed on full speed drills in Football, point to the same problem. Repetitive stress. Even with head trauma, a lot of the info I'm seeing is placing the emphasis not so much on the odd concussive shots, it's the cumulative effect of many smaller shots. I know this isn't directly related to Softball, but the information dovetails in both sports and their respective physical problems.

I think there is obviously some merit to the studies and their results. I know everyone wants their little DD to be the next Jenny Finch, but at the same time, we have to understand they're children and they need a chance to be kids.

Just for everyone's info, at least three states this year have legislation that limits the amount of "full speed contact" in youth Football. Texas, yes I said Texas, is currently looking at limiting the amount of "full speed contact" to 90 minutes per week at the high school level. The UIL of Texas, which is the state high school associations medical advisory board has recommended it, and they have gone along with every other recommendation from the UIL. I had a member of the NF rules committee tell me Sunday that by 2016 we would see a mandate from the NF regarding full speed contact. Many of these rules and policies are filtered down from the NFL and NCAA. I realize I'm talking about Football, but given the information that we're seeing across the board in all sports about repetitive stress, it can only be a matter of time before we see it in other sports.

Editorial:
As a parent who's been down this road, I can tell you from experience, you have to walk a fine line. Knowing when to push, when to back off, etc. My kid has some natural ability, she's also worked her butt off to cultivate that natural ability. No one knows your kid better than you do, just make sure you're right when it's time to push and when it's time to say hey, take a break.

[02BlazeCoach]

I agree, more research is required. However I am not going to pitch one girl all weekend and every weekend until conclusive research agrees it is a bad idea to do so. I think common sense would dictate that repetitive athletic motion can lead to injury. Pitching the same girl every game is like smoking a pack a day while waiting for undeniable proof that smoking is bad for you (Bad example, probably but best I could do at noon on a Friday).

How would the landscape of travel softball change if there was a inning/pitch limit? Would be interesting at just about every age level. I see a lot of teams with only one strong pitcher who pitches almost EVERY game.

[Tyler Durden]

Thank you for the compliment. "Fat"- not at all, "Dumb" - I have a Master's in Kinesiology from IU (do you even know what that is?), "Happy" - Alas, don't all of us long to be happy?
I never said there we NO studies, only that there are not ENOUGH for a governing body to make a formal recommendation. I also never said there were no injuries from windmill pitching. (Read closely my 1st comment). I just said you cannot go by the number they gave in baseball, because the factors are different.
As a matter of fact, one study posted in the International Journal of Sports Therapy found that total pitch counts were similar in both injured and non-injured softball pitchers, but that the greatest risk of injury came from shoulder PROM (basically flexibility in the joint tested before the season began) and in pitching mechanics.
My whole point was that more research needs to be done before a pitch count recommendation can be set. But obviously you feel that your knowledge and your sources are enough.
Don't bother replying, as I'm done with Heybucket.

Don't let them run you off, Professor. There are lots of 10u and 12u parents who are desperately looking for a professional such as yourself to assure them that they aren't ruining their daughters' health.

[killerbee]

A problem that I've seen and experienced over the last 15 yrs is the overuse of a pitcher in school ball! From throwing batting practice every day to games, in addition to their instruction. Example: Gym teacher/varsity coach has watched the college World Series from start to finish to learn some coaching strategies. Well lookie there!! Jennie Finch, Monica Abbott, Jackie Traina etc have thrown every single game in the series! There you have it!
Unaware of the regimen to condition a college athlete! The number of hours spent in the gym, position specific drills these kids endure throughout an offseason to make them the mule as the season comes to a head!
I've been fortunate to have 2-3 quality pitchers to compliment each other in my travel years. My kid is still mad at me because she didn't even get a sniff of the mound til 14u

Bye Happy!