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by Mark H » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:15 am

A post I can agree with C77. One caveat-learn to throw "fast" with good healthy mechanics first, then let the control come with practice. If you learn command at a lower level of effort/speed, then you are going to have to relearn command when you start trying to throw fast. I think kids get thrown into pitching games with all the pressure to "throw strikes" too early many times. Often their mechanics go south as they try to figure out how to stop walking people.
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by Mark H » Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:59 am

Some teach the hips opening and closing. Some teach the hips just opening with little to no close. One guy even teaches the hips staying closed the whole time but thankfully there only seems to be one of him. Another well known guy teaches the arm comes through before hip rotation with no discussion of the hips transferring rotational energy to the shoulders. If he asked me, I'd show him video and say the hips lead the shoulders during acceleration then follow the arm during deceleration. Some understand it's not so much the degree of opening and closing but rather the transfer of energy/momentum. This can be seen comparing the clips on Siggys site of Cat, Ueno and Finch. The form looks quite different but functionally they are much the same. And that's just discussing hips. Few seem to address the internal to external and then back to internal rotation of the shoulder as a key part of windmill pitching.

The only serious scientific study of the pitching motion I'm aware of compared the movements of Olympian pitchers during one Olympics but that was only on their rise ball and so was very limited though a good start. Anyone know of something since then?

What I'm saying is, much like swinging a bat, you may be overestimating our sport's agreement on best practices when it comes to pitching. There are some very interesting pitching motion discussions on DF along with some not so interesting. The pitching discussions seem to do better than the bat swinging discussions.

Is this a bit deep to try to convey to a 10u pitcher? Sure. But this level of understanding should inform the age and skill appropriate teaching of the professional pitching instructor.
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by Mark H » Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:29 pm

C77fastpitch wrote:What your writing about is something pitching coaches call,"Making Space". .


Not really. What I'm talking about is there is no accepted canon of best practices in fp pitching anymore than there is in how to swing a bat.
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by Mark H » Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:33 pm

C77fastpitch wrote:What your writing about is something pitching coaches call,"Making Space". Making space refers to the act of passing the back hip with your pitching hand before your hips close. The degree a pitcher turns sideways or opens up, is a choice made by that particular pitcher. Closing up or facing the target is another choice pitchers must make. Most of the fastest pitchers opens up completely for a full range of motion, much like a third baseman opens up to throw to first, but close at about 45%. The fact is, the pitching hand must pass the back hip before releasing the ball, or the pitch become a push and is not a best practice. The best practice pitching motion- Push off hard, and land relatively sideways, whipping the ball down in a long comfortable relaxed motion. The wrist snaps hard as it brushes by, and in front of, the back hip. The pitcher follows through sliding up tall with her pitching arm in front of body. Basically that is the best practice pitching motion, it is easy to recognize and duplicate with practice.


Question. With reference to your post, what part does external to internal shoulder rotation play in this arm clearing the hip? http://imageevent.com/siggy/throwing/wi ... =4&s=0&z=9
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by Mark H » Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:21 am

C77fastpitch wrote:I'm not sure about this external, and internal rotation your talking about. Where ever the shoulder is, the hand has to be in front of the back hip, period. Otherwise your pushing the ball not snapping the ball. No good pitcher, pitches with her hand behind her back hip. There is a best practice for pitching and hitting. You truly over emphasize events you believe are happening. Remember what a coach is suppose to teach? A coach teaches the basics and lets the student evolve into the pitcher they most naturally will be.


If you dig into external to internal rotation of the shoulder at release you will better understand the things you are describing in your above paragraph and in the clip I linked. Google discuss fastpitch internal rotation. Read it all. Especially anything Boardmember wrote. Continuing education is good right?
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by jtat32 » Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:03 pm

C77fastpitch wrote:I know what internal and external rotation mean, but in regards to pitching what are you talking about? The rotation of the arm circle with it's full range of motion is natural. The pitcher pulls her arm straight backward with the bicep muscle of her pitching arm coming close to ear. The arm then externalizes outside to some extent, then rotates over and in back of the ball at release, This is a very natural process. Your dogmatic principles of pitching are ridiculous. I will explain it to you. I've work with some big name pitchers and bio-engineers , and I know what they say needs to be taught, and the sequence in which they need to be taught. The junk that your talking about is great discussion for some on the internet, but doesn't hold water in the real world. Pitching, like any other position can be talked to death, but there are basic fundamentals regardless of what you think.



You're in over your head here kiddo:

The bicep may contribute weakly to rotation of the shoulder, but it's primary function is to contract the arm at the elbow.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "The arm then externalizes outside to some extent, then rotates over and in back of the ball at release", but you may be describing the internal rotation that Mark has mentioned. The series of videos below contain a great discussion of some of what I would consider to be the true "best practices" of pitching. If you watch the 3rd video, the motion that Balswick is demonstrating at around 2:35 is internal rotation.

http://balswickfastpitch.com/videos/

So, you are either arguing with a concept you agree with, or you don't understand what "best practices" truly are. Either way, you are embarrassing yourself.
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by jtat32 » Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:21 pm

No, I don't think I'm in over my head - admittedly the water doesn't have to get that deep for that to happen, but when it does, I listen and ask questions. You, on the other hand, lash out and make a fool of yourself and your argument. For example:

C77fastpitch wrote:Your dogmatic principles of pitching are ridiculous. I will explain it to you. I've work with some big name pitchers and bio-engineers , and I know what they say needs to be taught, and the sequence in which they need to be taught in. The junk that your talking about is great discussion for some on the internet, but doesn't hold water in the real world. Pitching, like any other position can be talked to death, but there are basic fundamentals regardless of what you think.


Let's take a step back, though, to a point that there is some general agreement on - young kids have the capacity to figure out a lot of the mechanics on their own through trial and error. If I was coaching an 8U team, I would spend a lot of hitting time at practice having hitting contests off a tee. Same thing with pitching, although I would begin with a restricted T or K motion, and (very) slowly build from there.

In the real world, there are a couple of problems with that approach, though:

- Some kids will go in the right direction, but some will just do the wrong thing even harder and exaggerate their flaws.

- Coaches are going to coach. There are a lot of misconceptions in rec ball softball and baseball, and coaches are going to impart them on all their players. Bad coaches, in fact, have a tendency to focus on their better players and ignore the ones that need the most instruction - this often leads to them effing up their good players' natural swings. I've seen that happen many times.

So, how do we improve this for the future generations? As PDad suggested in other of your threads, it would be through coaching the coaches. Before you can do that, a legitimate set of "best practices" needs to be agreed upon. You keep referring to them, but haven't provided much insight on what you think they are.
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by Mark H » Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:04 pm

C77,

Google is your friend.

I estimate you should be back to us in about a week if you do the study you should.
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