Tale of Two Houses

[Skarp]

I was wondering what you base this on? Do you know for a fact that all Dems "keep their lists and check them twice ....or forward them to the FBI or IRS, as the case may be...."? Just trying to get some facts here.....

I base it on three things, principally. 1) Bill Clinton maintaining files on his political enemies and sicking the IRS on them in several instances; 2) Obama recently commenting "don't think we aren't keeping score brother" to a Democrat who had the audacity to take a principled stand against his awful health care proposals; and 3) my own enormous body of experience with liberals, and how they treat those who disagree with them.

I was raised in a radically liberal home...my early years were literally spent in communal living environments in hippie hot-spots up and down the west coast. It wasn't until my late teens and early 20's that I started to come to my senses, and I still self-identified as a liberal and a Democrat until my late 20's. (Yes, I'm ashamed to admit it, I voted for Bill Clinton). Well, changing my political/social views cost me all of my liberal friends from back then. Because if you disagree with a liberal, you're not just incorrect or misinformed...you're a bad person. Feel free to reference your own comments to me in our early exchanges if you need confirmation on this point.

Liberals are generally irrational, and are extremely invested in their positions, both personally and emotionally. They therefore view disagreements not as a battle of ideas, but as personal warfare. That's actually from Marx: "the personal is political, and the political personal." No committed liberal that I have ever known thinks otherwise.

[GIMNEPIWO]

I was wondering what you base this on? Do you know for a fact that all Dems "keep their lists and check them twice ....or forward them to the FBI or IRS, as the case may be...."? Just trying to get some facts here.....

I base it on three things, principally. 1) Bill Clinton maintaining files on his political enemies and sicking the IRS on them in several instances; 2) Obama recently commenting "don't think we aren't keeping score brother" to a Democrat who had the audacity to take a principled stand against his awful health care proposals; and 3) my own enormous body of experience with liberals, and how they treat those who disagree with them.

I was raised in a radically liberal home...my early years were literally spent in communal living environments in hippie hot-spots up and down the west coast. It wasn't until my late teens and early 20's that I started to come to my senses, and I still self-identified as a liberal and a Democrat until my late 20's. (Yes, I'm ashamed to admit it, I voted for Bill Clinton). Well, changing my political/social views cost me all of my liberal friends from back then. Because if you disagree with a liberal, you're not just incorrect or misinformed...you're a bad person. Feel free to reference your own comments to me in our early exchanges if you need confirmation on this point.

Liberals are generally irrational, and are extremely invested in their positions, both personally and emotionally. They therefore view disagreements not as a battle of ideas, but as personal warfare. That's actually from Marx: "the personal is political, and the political personal." No committed liberal that I have ever known thinks otherwise.

I think I remember Carolina threatening to drag and or kick Skarps a*s ... but, I also think I remember that particular thread being pretty harsh the other way also ... whodathunk they'd grow up to be sweethearts ? ...eh, WTF ? ... It's all in a days fun ...

Skarp ... maybe it's just a flashback ?

[Skarp]

I think I remember Carolina threatening to drag and or kick Skarps a*s ... but, I also think I remember that particular thread being pretty harsh the other way also ... whodathunk they'd grow up to be sweethearts ? ...eh, WTF ? ... It's all in a days fun ...

Skarp ... maybe it's just a flashback ?

Hey, once the gloves comes off it's anything goes. I lost patience with that nonsense a loooong time ago.

I get the impression, though, that when Carolina decides to be nice, she's real nice...

[GIMNEPIWO]

I was wondering what you base this on? Do you know for a fact that all Dems "keep their lists and check them twice ....or forward them to the FBI or IRS, as the case may be...."? Just trying to get some facts here.....

I base it on three things, principally. 1) Bill Clinton maintaining files on his political enemies and sicking the IRS on them in several instances; 2) Obama recently commenting "don't think we aren't keeping score brother" to a Democrat who had the audacity to take a principled stand against his awful health care proposals; and 3) my own enormous body of experience with liberals, and how they treat those who disagree with them.

I was raised in a radically liberal home...my early years were literally spent in communal living environments in hippie hot-spots up and down the west coast. It wasn't until my late teens and early 20's that I started to come to my senses, and I still self-identified as a liberal and a Democrat until my late 20's. (Yes, I'm ashamed to admit it, I voted for Bill Clinton). Well, changing my political/social views cost me all of my liberal friends from back then. Because if you disagree with a liberal, you're not just incorrect or misinformed...you're a bad person. Feel free to reference your own comments to me in our early exchanges if you need confirmation on this point.

Liberals are generally irrational, and are extremely invested in their positions, both personally and emotionally. They therefore view disagreements not as a battle of ideas, but as personal warfare. That's actually from Marx: "the personal is political, and the political personal." No committed liberal that I have ever known thinks otherwise.

These statements are probably accurate for both sides ... Didn't the Bush administration fire Anthony Zinni for saying publically that we would need more troops in Afghaniistan than Bush was telling the American people ? ... I would saying firing is akin to 'keeping score' ...

[Skarp]

These statements are probably accurate for both sides ... Didn't the Bush administration fire Anthony Zinni for saying publically that we would need more troops in Afghaniistan than Bush was telling the American people ? ... I would saying firing is akin to 'keeping score' ...

No, they aren't even close to accurate for both sides. Not by a long shot.

For starters, your example is not analogous. A president is obviously entitled to make personnel changes in order to advance his policy agenda. In fact, since a president is elected to actually do something, he's in a sense obligated to make such changes whenever necessary. Where an employee of the administration disagrees with the president's agenda, and publicly advocates against it, he will almost certainly be replaced. That's a pragmatic decision...malice and/or vindictiveness aren't necessarily implicated at all.

Looking at non-political employment (and other) environments is much more instructive. Conservatives in the workplace are regularly persecuted for their political views (when they are dumb enough to reveal them), whereas liberals walk around with Obama or "No on 8" pins on their lapels and suffer no reprisals at all. Among conservatives in academic and professional environments this is a well-know fact of life...keep your head down and your mouth shut, or you will almost certainly pay a price. Conservative bosses/supervisors/colleagues/professors don't care about your politics...they care about your competence. Liberal bosses/supervisors/colleagues/professors care plenty about your politics, and will absolutely hold it against you if you are an evil conservative.

I posted before on here about a Mormon friend of mine who donated a small sum to the "Yes on 8" initiative here in California. Liberals opposed to Prop 8 got that information from public records and wrote letters to his employer (a large international law firm) complaining about the regressive and oppressive views of its employee. This is a nice guy with a wife and small child, and these MF'ers went after his livelihood. Over a political disagreement. They did the same thing to many others, as part of an orchestrated campaign of reprisal. You will never see conservatives do something like that.

When I was younger I was completely drunk on liberal kool-aid, but I have always been an intensely rational sort...more interested in the ideas and the internal consistency of my positions than anything else. (My arguments back then just proceeded from completely erroneous assumptions about human nature and the way the world works.) So I was one of the rare liberals who didn't take it personally when someone disagreed with me. Which meant I could have conservative friends...and I had many, who I argued with incessantly. Interestingly, none of them disliked me for my political views. They drew a sharp distinction between the world of ideas and the world of personal relationships. Compare that to what happened when I defected from the ranks of my liberal "friends." I was an almost instant pariah. Again, this is a phenomenon that conservatives everywhere are intimately familiar with.

[GIMNEPIWO]

Skarp ... Is your area of the country primarily liberal ? ... Because here in the conservative bible belt, I could offer personal experiences and examples of it being the other way around. Meaning conservatives behaving the way you say libs are behaving when they are in the majority.

[GIMNEPIWO]

These statements are probably accurate for both sides ... Didn't the Bush administration fire Anthony Zinni for saying publically that we would need more troops in Afghaniistan than Bush was telling the American people ? ... I would saying firing is akin to 'keeping score' ...

No, they aren't even close to accurate for both sides. Not by a long shot.
For starters, your example is not analogous. A president is obviously entitled to make personnel changes in order to advance his policy agenda. In fact, since a president is elected to actually do something, he's in a sense obligated to make such changes whenever necessary. Where an employee of the administration disagrees with the president's agenda, and publicly advocates against it, he will almost certainly be replaced. That's a pragmatic decision...malice and/or vindictiveness aren't necessarily implicated at all.

And so he did; He fired economic adviser Lawrence Lindsey after he predicted the war would cost $200 billion? ... Forced out General Shinseki after he predicted they would need several hundred thousand troops to occupy Iraq ... Had Richard Clarke demoted when he insisted there was no connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda? So lets see, don't give me the facts for Christ sake ... come up with numbers that support my agenda or you're outta here ! ... hhhmmm ... fire everyone who doesn't agree with you ... ? Sounds to me like "They therefore view disagreements not as a battle of ideas, but as personal warfare."

[Skarp]

Skarp ... Is your area of the country primarily liberal ? ... Because here in the conservative bible belt, I could offer personal experiences and examples of it being the other way around. Meaning conservatives behaving the way you say libs are behaving when they are in the majority.

Really? So conservatives shunning or taking direct and tangible action against a liberal because the liberal doesn't agree with the war, or favors universal health care, or thinks the government should do something to address global warming? I'd love to hear all about that.

Conservatives might roll their eyes at their naive liberal colleagues, but they don't view them as evil, and therefore don't seek to harm them in any way. Kind of like conservative political dissent is peaceful and lawful, whereas liberal political dissent often involves riots and violence and such.

[Skarp]

And so he did; He fired economic adviser Lawrence Lindsey after he predicted the war would cost $200 billion? ... Forced out General Shinseki after he predicted they would need several hundred thousand troops to occupy Iraq ... Had Richard Clarke demoted when he insisted there was no connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda? So lets see, don't give me the facts for Christ sake ... come up with numbers that support my agenda or you're outta here ! ... hhhmmm ... fire everyone who doesn't agree with you ... ? Sounds to me like "They therefore view disagreements not as a battle of ideas, but as personal warfare."

So listing more examples of the same benign phenomenon somehow makes it analogous?

The place for dissent in an administration is internal. You wage a battle of ideas in order to come up with a plan of action. Some players in that battle will obviously carry more clout, and others less. In any event, there ultimately has to be ONE plan that is settled upon, and at that point everyone gets on board with it or they have to go their separate ways...either by resigning, or being resigned. There is absolutely nothing nefarious or personal in this process at all.

[GIMNEPIWO]

Skarp ... Is your area of the country primarily liberal ? ... Because here in the conservative bible belt, I could offer personal experiences and examples of it being the other way around. Meaning conservatives behaving the way you say libs are behaving when they are in the majority.

Really? So conservatives shunning or taking direct and tangible action against a liberal because the liberal doesn't agree with the war, or favors universal health care, or thinks the government should do something to address global warming? I'd love to hear all about that.

Conservatives might roll their eyes at their naive liberal colleagues, but they don't view them as evil, and therefore don't seek to harm them in any way. Kind of like conservative political dissent is peaceful and lawful, whereas liberal political dissent often involves riots and violence and such.

Yeah ... the way those conservatives 'roll their eyes' at abortion clinics just before they bomb them and 'don't view them as evil' as they are blaming them for 9-11 ... I know what you mean