Shocking!!

[blackwidow]

Syd,
Thanks for responding..althoug I love SunTZu--Art of War not sure about Dave Grohl and not sure either qualifies as an article of relevance to this discussion.

I don't like to use my own personal experience when discussing politics but suffice it to say I come from a family entrenched in law enforcement.
It's a logical fallacy to use this as a basis for truth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_accomplishment

Peace.

[Sid Barrett]

I beg to differ.
The principals outlined in the “Art of War” have proven effective for three thousand years and still hold true today. Those principals were based, in large part, on the personal experiences of Sun Tzu.

Your retort, much like the legislation being pushed on citizens today, relays on theory (In this case, the theory of debate). However, theory is just that…theory. History is filled with examples of legislation that is created and sponsored by groups or individuals who have no real concept of how those laws, based on theory, will actually function or affect the very communities they are meant to serve (see the Affordable Car Act). Laws that tax or levy, criminalize or legalize behavior, all have real world consequences.

You can continue to push for your libertarian utopia, based on the theory that the evil government cannot or should not pass laws banning what an individual does to their own body or in the privacy of their own home. In many aspects, I support some of those same theories. But unlike you, I temper my theory with my real world experiences. I know, first hand, that legalizing drugs will not eliminate the issues that accompany them. If you recall, most illegal drugs, (heroin, cocaine, methamphetamine), were all legal and had legitimate medical purposes at one time. But then the evil government figured out that people get hooked on those drugs and do crazy things to feed their addiction or because of their addictions….like steal from, hurt or kill their fellow citizens.

We have been down this road before, but apparently some, particularly those in the libertarian or left wings, refuse to learn from the lessons of the past and continue to rest on their theory, flawed as it may be.

As far as Dave Grohl goes….Ok. You got me. He probably isn’t very relevant to this discussion, but he is a Bad motha *%$?@ !

[blackwidow]

Those who are convinced by the argument for prohibition of substances are encouraged by politicians to conflate it with fighting drug use. When the 18th Amendment was passed in the United States, prohibiting alcohol nationwide, there was seen an initial decrease in alcohol consumption of some thirty percent but this was soon followed by a dramatic increase by as much as sixty percent as compared to pre-prohibition levels.

Not only this but the prohibition encouraged the development of massive black market infrastructures which fed alcohol profits directly into the pockets of criminal organizations instead of peaceful businesses. It is fairly simple to extrapolate from this the source of the current drug proliferation when comparing pre-prohibition levels of drug consumption with that of today. The drug trade has not suffered but, in fact, thrived under prohibition. It inflates the price of the substance, increases profits, encourages purposeful "drug pushing," and empowers criminal enterprises, making us all that much less safe. The good intent here of people who are for prohibition is in decreasing drug use and addiction.

People do not quit drugs because they are prohibitively expensive, they instead turn to a life of crime or play on the emotions of those closest to them. People quit drugs when they wish to and they only do this when they have a good reason. Often they can only do this with treatment and help, though by the time they are ready to stop, they have already expended the wealth of those most willing to help them due to the excessive cost of the drugs.

Believing that you can legislate away the evils of society is a utopian ideal, not libertarianism. Freedom scares most people.
But I understand where you're coming from now that I know you are from a LEO background.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.
~Sun Tzu

[jonriv]

The prohibition drug analogy does not really work -for one simple reason. Alcohol had been a regular part of most peoples lives for thousands of years. It was mainstream. Prohibition did not work because too many regular people circumvented it. Damn my Grandparents kept a bottle of Scotch in their apartment during it. Prohibition got pushed through by an odd alliance of Religious right, femenists and anti-immigrant groups.

Drugs, especially hardcore drugs- do not even come close to what the popularity of alcohol was(and is)

And finally BW- these kind of laws, prohibitions- are not from some Governement mandate- tehy usually come from some grass-roots (popular) idea. One of the problems of living in a Democratic-republic is sometimes the choice/decision does not go your way

[blackwidow]

One of the problems of living in a Democratic-republic is sometimes the choice/decision does not go your way

Very True! Especially when many believe government has claim to our lives, liberties, and property - for the "common welfare". It's a very collectivist ideal.
But there are those working to change this mass collectivism and create a republic that values individual rights and personal responsibility.

Mother of three negligently shot in the head during botched drug raid (dead mom but hey at least we are preventing drug crime?)
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories ... -raid.html

ATF's Milwaukee sting operation marred by mistakes, failures. (Money down the drain.)
http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/watchd ... 52581.html

How A Drug Raid Gone Wrong Sparked A Call For Change In The Unlikeliest State In The Nation
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/2 ... 38252.html

Ex-Milwaukee officer gets 26 months in prison for strip, cavity searches (because hey when you wear a magic uniform the laws don't apply to you)
http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/ex-m ... 86141.html

Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
An Epidemic of "Isolated Incidents"
http://www.cato.org/raidmap

MAgicSuit.jpg (28.4 KiB) Viewed 3580 times

[blackwidow]

And last on the drug war.

Prescription overdoses kill more people than heroin and cocaine.

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/pre ... z2pMfLPtFZ

[jonriv]

Because more people use them?

[exD1dad]

IMHO the USA has wasted billions with the entire drug war & incarcerated thousands for possession needlessly. Look what the several European countries do, they know 1 to 2% of the population will be addicts so they give them their space, clean needles make it easy for them to get high & wait with an extended hand of help when they are ready to get clean & have body bags ready for when they OD.

I say legalize drugs , tax the crap out of them, set up rehabs & detox's like fast food franchises, make those who are offenders blow in some American made contraption where they cant start their car if they've been using. these are solutions which won't come to pass in my lifetime but would 1) create revenue for the gov 2) put people to work helping others 3) let offenders who just smoke pot go on with their lives but safely for others when driving

[blackwidow]

Any country music fans?

What About Mouthwash?-Trevor Moore
http://youtu.be/OOCdIY_HKM4


What does Breaking Bad tell us about the war on drugs?
https://vimeo.com/71756841

[Sid Barrett]

Despite the propagandist articles that BW likes to cite on her HB posts, our prisons and jails, at least in California, are NOT overly filled with lowly addicts incarcerated for the victimless crime of simple drug possession. In my experience, which is all I can really rely on, I have NEVER seen an individual sentenced to anything more than a few days for a first, second or even third offense for simple possession or drug use. In fact, the state of California embraced diversionary sentencing in favor for treatment programs over 15 years ago. What I have seen is that our jails and prisons are stacked to the gills with offenders who are incarcerated for burglary AND drug possession, assault AND drug possession, robbery AND drug possession, domestic battery AND drug possession etc.

I am fairly certain that legalizing drugs is not going to remedy that situation. I am not sure what the answer is either, maybe a better, or at least different combination of enforcement and treatment. I am certainly not in favor of my tax dollars being used to provide junkies with their fix. Mostly because I don’t wanna work while a$$hat sits around getting high on my dime. However, what some people fail to realize is that even if you give addicts their substance for free, at tax payers expense, these people are still, most likely un-employed or under employed. The problem is that they still require income, in the form of cash or valuables, to support other aspects of their lives. How do you think they get that cash? Ask your neighbor who’s house was broken into? Or your co-worker who was robbed at gunpoint. These problems don’t magically disappear because the evil government waived their magic wand. If you want to stop crime, incarcerate drug users and let the courts decide who is eligible for treatment and who should do a bullet in county. If my tax dollars are going to be used to house and feed drug addicts, I would rather it be in prison or jail where the don’t have the opportunity to harm innocent members of the community.