South Carolina to Lower Confederate Flag

[jonriv]

http://www.wsj.com/articles/confederate ... ss_US_News

Just curious to what some of the thoughts and opinions regarding this are?

As a White/Northerner- I find myself kind of neutral on the whole thing. I understand some Southerners attachment to a "former Glory" and had many a discussion with my Southern Bretheren in the Army about the "War of Northern Aggression" and how the history of the the Civil War is an key part of Southern culture and identity. I am also aware that there certainly is a difference between the Confederate Flag and the Confederate Battle Flag

I can also understand how African American might find the flag offensive in the same way Jews would find the Nazi flag offensive. I can also understandhow certain groups have "hijacked" the flag to represent an extremist point of view. I also know that the flag started re-appearing over Southern capitals during the fight to maintain racial segregation. So this flag represents many things to many people.

My own feeling is that this flag has no place flying over a state capital or other government buildings. The confederacy lost and the flag represents a serious rebellion agains the United States of America that cost the country more American livesthan all other wars combined. The flag should not be banned, but its rightful place is in museums and historic sites-ie is makes sence to have it at the Gettysburg Battlefield. Those who fly it in their years, bumper stickers etc.. certainly should have the freedom of expression, but probably must should fully understand the history and implications of the emblem(I fear most do not.

What are your thoughts?

[PairOfAces]

My ancestors come from both the North (on my dad's side) and South (on my mother's side), but I was raised a true, and proud, Southerner from Tennessee.

None of my ancestors, who my father traced back to the late 1700s, ever owned slaves, and there is no documentation that any of my ancestors died in the Civil War.

While I agree with you that there is no need for the Confederate battle flag to fly over a state capitol, I find the massive debate on this issue to be ridiculous. Just because some nut case (who had racist views and once took a picture with a Confederate flag) killed several blacks, a tragedy to be sure, is no reason for the hysterical reaction to that flag.

Taking the Dukes of Hazard (never watched it, never cared for it) off an oldie TV station; trying to get Confederate soldiers remains displaced from their burial site; removing Confederate merchandise from stores; trying to rename schools who are named for Southern military Generals; etc. IS hysteria.

Where has the disgust for that symbol been for the past 150 years? To me, even though I have never flown or displayed that flag, it is a symbol of Southern heritage and nothing more. Has that flag been used for racism and hatred? Yes, but that does not mean that everyone, or even most people feel that way. We have been preached to "not let the actions of a few Muslims cast a cloud of the entire Muslim community. Is the Southerner not to be afforded that same right?

So take the flag down over the South Carolina capitol, but after that just calm down. You can't, no matter how much you would like to, rewrite history.

[jonriv]

I agree with you with some of the "ridiculousness" The whole Dukes of Hazzard thing is absurd. The debate is not new and does not span 150 years. Confederate battle flags started showing around state capitals 50 years ago as defiance against desegregation- it certainly carried some racial connotations. There has been controversy ever since, SC moved it from the Capital Dome 10 years ago because of such controversy. As far as retail shops pulling it off their shelves, as long as it is their choice and not some Government mandate I see no problem.

As far as the High Schools….. its tough. many of the Generals Lee, Jackson were well respected, but would I feel that way if I were African american attending that school? How would you feel if you were Jewish and attended Hermann Goering HS?

Too many treat these things as Black and White(no pun intended), when they have so many shades of gray(again no pun intended ) I think the way SC handled it was very respectful and the ceremony was done very well

[PairOfAces]

Agree with the shades of gray, no doubt. And of course the stores have the right to pull any items from their shelves they see fit. But I guess I am cynical - I believe most of the stores are pulling the items for reasons of "positive publicity" (look at how much we care about you African American shopper) rather than moral outrage. If they felt the Confederate battle flag merchandise was a symbol or racism and bigotry, why has it been on their shelves for so long? Better yet, take all the profit they have ever made on such merchandise and donate it to the NAACP.

And how about Bubba Watson and the General Lee car he owns. Why did he have to have a press release to announce that he was removing the Confederate flag from the car? Why not just (quietly) paint over it, or sell the car, no matter how much money he loses? w Just a "look at me, I'm not racist" publicity stunt. (New flash - if you are named Bubba, you are already the stereotypical southern redneck - so why not legally change your name?)

As for the schools, were they named for the military generals, or were they named for the racist, slave owning, southerners? Look at the qualities that caused the schools and streets to be named for the person in the first place. And to be honest, how many students (black, white, Hispanic, Asian, whatever) know much of anything about the history of the name of their school?

Again, we cannot change history no matter how much that history offends certain segments of the population. I just read an op/ed piece that suggests the renaming issue is not changing history, it is "getting history right." What a ludicrous and asinine statement! These schools have been in existence for years, providing education and community pride to all the prior students, no matter their skin color, and many would erase that, and more, from the history books if they could. What would become of the diplomas of all the people who graduated from Robert E. Lee High School? What about sport teams' state or conference records from Jefferson Davis High School. Do we erase them too?

[jonriv]

Of course the stores are doing it for commercial reasons. I certainly agree with you on Bubba

The school thing is tricky. I have no problem with Robert E Lee HS, but might have an issue with jefferson Davis(kind of like Benedict Arnold HS) I think it is important that the school teach all about its namesake(the good, the bad and the ugly) to show how far we have come. I think it says a lot that African-American kids are now attending a school named after a confederate general. The real irony is that in many ways the south is far less racists and has less de-facto segragation than other parts of the country. In the south blacks and whites tend to live in the same towns and neighborhoods- up North there are usually seperate parts or towns of on Long Island where I grew up towns were very different(Levittown was white bread) and Roosevelts(Dr Jay and Eddie Murphy) were predominately Black.

[PairOfAces]

Of course the stores are doing it for commercial reasons. I certainly agree with you on Bubba

The school thing is tricky. I have no problem with Robert E Lee HS, but might have an issue with jefferson Davis(kind of like Benedict Arnold HS) I think it is important that the school teach all about its namesake(the good, the bad and the ugly) to show how far we have come. I think it says a lot that African-American kids are now attending a school named after a confederate general. The real irony is that in many ways the south is far less racists and has less de-facto segragation than other parts of the country. In the south blacks and whites tend to live in the same towns and neighborhoods- up North there are usually seperate parts or towns of on Long Island where I grew up towns were very different(Levittown was white bread) and Roosevelts(Dr Jay and Eddie Murphy) were predominately Black.

Exactly! In prior threads I have given away that I am old(er ), and I will continue to do so here. I went to first and second grade in a segregated school in a small southern town. My family moved to another small southern town prior to starting third grade, and that school was desegregated. Didn't make any difference to me, and apparently not to my parents, who enrolled me in the school. From that point on I completed my education and either got along with black kids or did not get along with them, depending on our interactions - not the color of our skin. I have not liked every black person I have ever met, nor have I disliked every black person. My point is, I think my experience of growing up in the south is like most (of course not all) people's experience in the south. And that goes along with what you said about the south being less racist - in many ways. Again, certainly not in every way. For the most part, southern whites and blacks generally get along, and until recent events, the confederate flag was not a huge point of contention. UNTIL somebody told everyone that it SHOULD be a problem.

[PDad]

I believe context is very important when looking at the so-called 'Confederate Flag'.

- It is proper to discontinue government usage that began 50 years ago as a symbol of opposition to civil rights.

- It is proper to use it within the historical context of the Civil War. It is absurd products were removed because they happened to have it in a historically accurate way (e.g. Civil War history games).

- People can legally use that flag in other offensive and/or proper ways.

- There are various motivations for the actions of businesses - believing it's the right thing to do; wanting positive PR; protecting against possible negative PR; and succumbing to external pressure. I respectfully disagree with the first, roll my eyes at the second and abhor the forces of censorship and prior restraint that trigger the last two.

BTW, the activists also want the military to rename bases named after confederates (e.g. Ft Benning).

[jonriv]

I often wondered why some of army posts(Benning, Bragg, hood) were named for enemies of the U.S. Army

[PairOfAces]

I often wondered why some of army posts(Benning, Bragg, hood) were named for enemies of the U.S. Army

I thought they were all US Army - until they seceded. No?

[jonriv]

The key word is were