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So, how many of you out there are Bernie supporters?

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Keep it reasonable.

by Skarp » Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:27 pm

ontheblack wrote:You know, Trump has had a golden opportunity to make this not about being racist, but finishing the job Clinton never finished when he signed The Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996. Reagan wouldve done a masterful job using this against Hillary.

Don't worry. He's just getting started.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/ ... _form.html

Hillary's gonna beat this? I don't think so.
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by exD1dad » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:11 pm

Trump vs the racist judge explained by Ben Stein http://spectator.org/trump-is-totally-right/
from my twitter feed a new La Raza article http://www.patdollard.com/watch-la-raza ... -kill-him/

Hey OTB my misinterpretation sorry
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by jonriv » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:10 am

Skarp wrote:
ontheblack wrote:Tunnels are built for profit. That would mean drugs, not illegals. Those smart enough to build these tunnels are not stupid enough to jeopardize them with trafficking people, at least not human trafficking going northbound.

"Walls don't work" is one of the more hilarious arguments the open-borders types make.



Historically walls have a terrible track record. They tend to waste resources and develop a false sen of security.

Maginot Line- Germans just went around it and captured it from behind

Great Wall Of China- Bankrupted at least two dynasties and the Mongols still conquered China

Hadrians Wall- Picts (later the Saxons) had no problem getting passed it during Roman withdrawal


I am all for a strong border- I just think a wall sends a wrong message(see Berlin Wall) Wastes resources and pretty much solves nothing IMO
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by jonriv » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:58 am

As many other republicans- I am struggling with Donald Trump as a candidate(although the concept of the alternative makes it less of a struggle :D ) As someone who has spent his entire life in the NYC tri-state area I have had a steady diet of "The Donald" for decades The Good, The Bad and the Ugly. Like Ben Carson said, there seems like there are two donald Trumps- The Boorish, Obnoxious, bullying wheeler dealer and the thoughful, good father, great friend and generous philantropist


As mentioned in previous posts- Donald Trump made his fortune the old fashioned way- he inherited it!! Yes his father made him a loan, but it was to expand an already successful business that Donald was brought into, It came with all of his Dad's connections etc.. To Donald's credit he built from that foundation and made it more successful, Ironically- Fred Trump made his money building low income and lower middle class housing in Queens and Brooklyn-while Donald has focused on more upscale projects.

Donald Trump went to the New York Military Academy( a school that later went bankrupt and was recently sold to Chinese Investors) He used his father's connections for several military deferments and was later 4-f'd due to some foot condition.

Some great public-private things he did in New York are impressive. Besides Trump Tower and other upscale buildings. Trump negotiated some tax abatements when he renovated the old Commodore Hotel(now the Grand Hyatt) net to Grand Central terminal. He offered to clean GCT(which was a black, soot covered eyesore) in exchange for the tax relief. The cleaning was a huge success(made the hotel look better too) and help lead to the total renovation that has made GCT a destination spot and a jewel of the city, The other was Wollman Rink in Central Park. The rink had fallen into disrepair and the City renovations had been marked with scandal, cost overruns and was way behind schedule. Trump finished ahead of schedule and under budget,

Trump's personal life is also two-sided-

One side he has raised very impressive kids. Well educated and each eager to make their mark. I think someone's children is a huge reflection on their own character

Then their are the three marriages(Can't figure why the evangelicals like this guy :? ) His public divorce of Ivana. The "Best Sex I Ever had!" proclamation to Marla Maples. BTW two of his Wives were Immigrants- Ivana was from a member of the Warsaw Pact(an enemy at the time)


He is well known for his sexist and Boorish comments, yet his business has been downright progressive in its hiring and promoting of qualified women. He has probably dome more for de-facto women's rights than Hillary!


He is touted as a successful businessman- This is true, but with some warts. His business has been brought to the brink twice due to debt, to his credit he was able to negotiate out of it. His investments in Atlantic City have been a disaster. Frankly I find the style of some of his buildings a little over the top, but they seem to do well. He has built some nice building outside of NYC (White Plains, Stamford, and New Rochelle which have help to revitalize those downtowns.

I am concerned about his views on trade(if taken at their word) I actually believe a lot of what he said are overblown negotiating tactics(what a surprise for a NYC Real Estate Salesman!) Tariffs are bad for the economy as a hold and tend to lead to trade wars, inflation, recession and even depressions- the real losers tend to be the American Consumer. America first and isolationism may sound great, historically they have been a disaster. It was these movements that help deepen the Great Depression and our late and costly entrance to WWII. I hear the warning about "Globalists", but to ignore the Global economy and the inter-connections to our own economy are IMO foolish and short-sighted I hope that this is a bargaining ploy.

Being a businessman and not a politician are very attractive. I think we need a different strategy and "out of the box" thinking. I am concerned though that Trump has run private companies that really have only been answerable to himself. Our form of Government has checks and balances that may frustrate him if he does not learn how to navigate them. Business tactics are good, but Government is a different animal.


After all these ramblings I have put somewhat simplistic Pros and Cons. Please feel free to add:

Pros:
Businessman-not a politician
Knows how to get projects done
Already vetted by press-no skeletons
Speaks his mind-no PC here
Not bound by any political dogma-flexible
Does not need lobbyists
Portrays a tough leadership persona

Cons:
Boorish and Rude
"Flexibility" can be view as flip-flopping, not sure what he really stands for
Tends to over-simplify things
His insults are childish
He comes across as racists by lumping groups together
Tariff proposals
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by Pale Rider » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:47 am

jonriv wrote:Cons:
Boorish and Rude
Nice guys get shit on in big people world... 'Cowboy up'

"Flexibility" can be view as flip-flopping, not sure what he really stands for
America (See Benghazi)

Tends to over-simplify things
Politicians can write 10,000 pages on how to boil water as cover or blame a video

His insults are childish
Sticks and stones...

He comes across as racists by lumping groups together
'Illegal isn't a race'

Tariff proposals
Why not, China is caving our asses in on trade...GM builds more cars now in China than US thanks mostly to Unions and Govt regs...and the US taxpayers pays for both
AKA "Thread Killer"

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by jonriv » Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:13 am

Will try to respond

Pale Rider wrote:
jonriv wrote:Cons:
Boorish and Rude
Nice guys get shit on in big people world... 'Cowboy up' There is a difference between being tough and being a bully There is a difference between confidence and arrogance. The way he acts many times is just not needed, You can stiil be polite and tough

"Flexibility" can be view as flip-flopping, not sure what he really stands for
America (See Benghazi)- Does he?? He has had so many positions over the past few decades I am not sure where he really stand(except for Trump

Tends to over-simplify things
Politicians can write 10,000 pages on how to boil water as cover or blame a video- You are correct here, but Trump's over-simplication sometimes come across as not fully grasping the issue. Campaigning polititions are famous for their lack of details, but trump has taken that to an extreme

His insults are childish
Sticks and stones...

He comes across as racists by lumping groups together
'Illegal isn't a race' No, but Trump is so vague in his diatribes that he lumps legal and illegal together. He also plays to the extreme anti-immigrant side. IMO his rhetoric is dangerous and comes across as extreme and alienating

Tariff proposals
Why not, China is caving our asses in on trade...GM builds more cars now in China than US(because it is the largest car market in the world- that's why Mercedes, Volkswagon, Honda etc are there too )thanks mostly to Unions and Govt regs...and the US taxpayers pays for both

Tariffs historically do not work-in fact tend to make problems worth. If we take Trump at his word- is the American consumer ready to pay 20-30% more for their goods(can you say Weimar Republic???


I think we should negotiate stronger trade agreements, no doubt, but are real focus should be internal. Investment dollars, MFG etc go to their most efficient use- a combination of labor cost, labor skill, regulation, taxation, security etc....The best way to win the trade war is to become the most efficient- Focus should on a more streamlined and competitive corporate tax code(Trump is for this), streamlined and consistent regulations, retraining of much of the work force. America from the Civil War until WWII was the low cost producer, Japan followed, Korea and then China. As China's economy matures it too will lose its cost advantage-but will be a large consumer market to sell to. Tariff and Trade Wars are a lose-lose for all involved(see Smoot-Hawley Tariff
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by ontheblack » Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:42 am

That was a pretty good summarization Jon. I think you nailed the duality of the Trump persona.
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by Skarp » Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:51 am

jonriv wrote:Historically walls have a terrible track record. They tend to waste resources and develop a false sen of security.

Maginot Line- Germans just went around it and captured it from behind

Great Wall Of China- Bankrupted at least two dynasties and the Mongols still conquered China

Hadrians Wall- Picts (later the Saxons) had no problem getting passed it during Roman withdrawal


I am all for a strong border- I just think a wall sends a wrong message(see Berlin Wall) Wastes resources and pretty much solves nothing IMO

Bollocks. When it comes to restricting the movement of people from one place to another, walls are the most effective and efficient option there is--which explains their widespread use today and throughout history. Watch "13 Hours." A wall is a huge force and resource multiplier. The Germans went around the Maginot Line for a reason.

The message of the Berlin Wall works just fine for me. "Don't F'ing Try It!"
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by jonriv » Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:39 am

Skarp wrote:
jonriv wrote:Historically walls have a terrible track record. They tend to waste resources and develop a false sen of security.

Maginot Line- Germans just went around it and captured it from behind

Great Wall Of China- Bankrupted at least two dynasties and the Mongols still conquered China

Hadrians Wall- Picts (later the Saxons) had no problem getting passed it during Roman withdrawal


I am all for a strong border- I just think a wall sends a wrong message(see Berlin Wall) Wastes resources and pretty much solves nothing IMO

Bollocks. When it comes to restricting the movement of people from one place to another, walls are the most effective and efficient option there is--which explains their widespread use today and throughout history. Watch "13 Hours." A wall is a huge force and resource multiplier. The Germans went around the Maginot Line for a reason.

The message of the Berlin Wall works just fine for me. "Don't F'ing Try It!"


Walls are not force multipliers anymore( notice the lack of castles and forts). How well did Sadaams wall work out for him. They are a waste of money. A mobile defense in depth is a much better

As nasty as the Berlin Wall was, people still got through it or died trying. Not sure the USA wants to have guard towers, interlocking machine gun fire and minefields??? The Berlin Wall represented evil and failure, it became a rallying point and ultimately failed. Not sure the example we want to use
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by Blind Squirrel » Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:55 am

Skarp wrote:
jonriv wrote:Historically walls have a terrible track record. They tend to waste resources and develop a false sen of security.

Maginot Line- Germans just went around it and captured it from behind

Great Wall Of China- Bankrupted at least two dynasties and the Mongols still conquered China

Hadrians Wall- Picts (later the Saxons) had no problem getting passed it during Roman withdrawal


I am all for a strong border- I just think a wall sends a wrong message(see Berlin Wall) Wastes resources and pretty much solves nothing IMO

Bollocks. When it comes to restricting the movement of people from one place to another, walls are the most effective and efficient option there is--which explains their widespread use today and throughout history. Watch "13 Hours." A wall is a huge force and resource multiplier. The Germans went around the Maginot Line for a reason.

The message of the Berlin Wall works just fine for me. "Don't F'ing Try It!"


Fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of man.
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