Ok so I am new to all of this but I am a little confused. I have a few questions maybe some of you can answer.
My daughters team is in the ASA Tournament this weekend in Roseville and a few things don't make sense to me.
1. Why would a tournament take 26 teams if it makes the brackets uneven. We have pools with 6 teams which means not all teams play each other in their pool, then pools with 4 teams so everyone plays each other. How do you get a true #1 - seed if you don't play everyone in the pool. Shouldn't the tournament be cut at 24 teams so everyone plays all the teams in their pool?
2. Why would the Gold Silver be split 13 teams each? It looks like there are teams that are #1 seeds who have bye's first round then a team who is #1 doesn't get a bye. How do they decide what #1 seed doesn't get a bye. If the tourney was cut at 24 it would be split 12 12. With 26 why didn't they go 14 12 so we don't have all of these bye games?
3. How do the pools get drawn. I think it is funny that you have pools stacked with young teams and then pools stacked with older teams. Wouldn't it make sense to mix the pools with an even number of young and old teams.
4 I guess basically I am wondering Does ASA have a standard way to do pool play schedules or bracket Sunday play? Or are all of the tournaments like this.
NorCal
Lets try this.
#1 - It's all about the money.
#2 - Not much sense to be made there. Sunday brackets are already drawn prior to pool results.
#3 - TD will "map" out the pools based on their own interest.
#4 - ASA is responsible for "championship play" that is the national level tournaments.
#1 - It's all about the money.
#2 - Not much sense to be made there. Sunday brackets are already drawn prior to pool results.
#3 - TD will "map" out the pools based on their own interest.
#4 - ASA is responsible for "championship play" that is the national level tournaments.
- Stealing Home
- Posts: 102
- Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:02 pm
This is just the way it goes. There is no such thing as a completely fair tournament, so this is as close as you're going to get - and it is perfectly fine as it is. This tourney is a chance for the girls to play some games. Hopefully, they'll get good games and they and their teams will develop. That's why TDs will sometimes place younger teams in pools together.
BTW, none of your suggestions would produce the result you want. Brackets of 12 and 14 teams would still produce 1st round byes.
Enjoy the journey and the time with your DD.
BTW, none of your suggestions would produce the result you want. Brackets of 12 and 14 teams would still produce 1st round byes.
Enjoy the journey and the time with your DD.
-
jtat32 - Premium Member
- Posts: 456
- Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:53 am
Great question here. The type for this kind of forum. The bottom line as Stealing Home indicated is that it's all about the money. Who's money? The tournament director.
Because of the lack of competition among TD's in the Sacramento area, due to politics, coaches and teams have become accustom to overall poor quality of tournaments. We can go on and on about the poor way tournaments are held here locally but to answer the question, you have a tournament director in this case who not only has a team playing in his own tournament but has political ties to an organization that has a lot of influence in the local softball arena.
Did you notice how the TD pooled his own team? Why 4 teams in some pools and 6 in others? Stealing Home has it right about Money and agendas.
Perfectly fine jtat32? If you want to see how tournaments should be run, play in Triple Crown tournaments or take note on how Western Nationals and Qualifiers are run. Game times are 1 hour 30, as they should be, and pairings are all by blind draw.
Because of the lack of competition among TD's in the Sacramento area, due to politics, coaches and teams have become accustom to overall poor quality of tournaments. We can go on and on about the poor way tournaments are held here locally but to answer the question, you have a tournament director in this case who not only has a team playing in his own tournament but has political ties to an organization that has a lot of influence in the local softball arena.
Did you notice how the TD pooled his own team? Why 4 teams in some pools and 6 in others? Stealing Home has it right about Money and agendas.
Perfectly fine jtat32? If you want to see how tournaments should be run, play in Triple Crown tournaments or take note on how Western Nationals and Qualifiers are run. Game times are 1 hour 30, as they should be, and pairings are all by blind draw.
- Chango15
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 7:55 pm
screwballz22 wrote:Ok so I am new to all of this but I am a little confused. I have a few questions maybe some of you can answer.
My daughters team is in the ASA Tournament this weekend in Roseville and a few things don't make sense to me.
1. Why would a tournament take 26 teams if it makes the brackets uneven. We have pools with 6 teams which means not all teams play each other in their pool, then pools with 4 teams so everyone plays each other. How do you get a true #1 - seed if you don't play everyone in the pool. Shouldn't the tournament be cut at 24 teams so everyone plays all the teams in their pool?
2. Why would the Gold Silver be split 13 teams each? It looks like there are teams that are #1 seeds who have bye's first round then a team who is #1 doesn't get a bye. How do they decide what #1 seed doesn't get a bye. If the tourney was cut at 24 it would be split 12 12. With 26 why didn't they go 14 12 so we don't have all of these bye games?
3. How do the pools get drawn. I think it is funny that you have pools stacked with young teams and then pools stacked with older teams. Wouldn't it make sense to mix the pools with an even number of young and old teams.
4 I guess basically I am wondering Does ASA have a standard way to do pool play schedules or bracket Sunday play? Or are all of the tournaments like this.
And it is not going to change so dont hold your breath.
Answers.
1. Money
2.TD's own agenda
3.TD's own agenda
4.Money
- lookingIN
- Posts: 300
- Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:00 am
One of the things you learn about this wonderful system is that there is no consistency or standard way of setting up brackets and pool play. Each TD sets things up on a multitude of criteria. They accept as many teams as their fields can accommodate because it means more money for the organization hosting the tournament.
One of the things families learn as they progress from the 10U to 18 Gold levels is that the trophies, plaques, and medals that are won at the lower levels give way to wanting to play meaningful games against good competition (win or lose). This may be one of the reason you see many of the top teams all in the same pool at a tournament. They would rather have three guaranteed games on Saturday against great competition than to play in a weaker pool and maybe have one or two good games on Sunday after going through the bracket. Again, they are looking for strong competition, not tournament titles.
My experience has been that tournaments are nice and teach the girls to compete. However, they also bring out the competitive nature of the parents and we forget it is about learning and developing the skills to be a better player. We focus on how the tournament is set up, whose playing who, when they are playing, who has been given a competitive advantage, etc...
We actually have gotten more meaningful competition and our players have learned more by playing in "friendlies". Opposing coaches tend to not focus on winning, but playing to get better. The umpires tend to be more instructional and talk to players and coaches about what they see.
Bottom line -
Enjoy the tournaments and accept them for what they are. - Money Makers.
Don't worry about what you can't control -Schedule, Umpire Calls, Playing time for your DD.
Play in organizations that value the development of players more than the trophies or titles they earn.
One of the things families learn as they progress from the 10U to 18 Gold levels is that the trophies, plaques, and medals that are won at the lower levels give way to wanting to play meaningful games against good competition (win or lose). This may be one of the reason you see many of the top teams all in the same pool at a tournament. They would rather have three guaranteed games on Saturday against great competition than to play in a weaker pool and maybe have one or two good games on Sunday after going through the bracket. Again, they are looking for strong competition, not tournament titles.
My experience has been that tournaments are nice and teach the girls to compete. However, they also bring out the competitive nature of the parents and we forget it is about learning and developing the skills to be a better player. We focus on how the tournament is set up, whose playing who, when they are playing, who has been given a competitive advantage, etc...
We actually have gotten more meaningful competition and our players have learned more by playing in "friendlies". Opposing coaches tend to not focus on winning, but playing to get better. The umpires tend to be more instructional and talk to players and coaches about what they see.
Bottom line -
Enjoy the tournaments and accept them for what they are. - Money Makers.
Don't worry about what you can't control -Schedule, Umpire Calls, Playing time for your DD.
Play in organizations that value the development of players more than the trophies or titles they earn.
- papadan
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:06 pm
jtat32 wrote:This is just the way it goes. There is no such thing as a completely fair tournament,
Not saying anything about fair my thought process is for better overall competition. If you pair the young and old teams in pool play correctly, the young teams would get both a push from the older team and a team they can compete with. For the older team they would get a team they could get some #2s some play time then a team who would challenge them more. Sunday you would most likely end up playing all tough competition in both Gold and Silver. Instead you have older teams in each which just roll through the young teams which is boring to watch and painful for others.
jtat32 wrote:BTW, none of your suggestions would produce the result you want. Brackets of 12 and 14 teams would still produce 1st round byes.
I am no math wiz but if you have 14 in one bracket you would have 1 bye game only on Sunday 14 teams = 7 even pairs 1 bye in round 2 even the rest of the way. 12 teams = 6 even pairs one team would have a bye in the Semis. Beats 3 byes in round one in both 13 team brackets to me.
But sounds to me like there is no standard way so my thoughts are probably just that.
- screwballz22
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:26 pm
I hated being the 1 seed and getting a bye. i wanted games, games, and more games. Most TD know who the better teams are, and they put them in pools that will then have those teams on opposite sides of the bracket for Sunday. Why should a weak team make the finals because the 2 best teams in the tourney have to knock each other out on Sunday. Now, that assumes those two "Best" teams win all games on Saturday and are number 1 seeds on Sunday. If they dont take care of their business and finish 2 or 3 in their pool, then those plans go up in smoke.
i never cared about pools and how they were put together. Actually , it always kind of sucked not getting to play the best teams on Saturday. if you are worried about pools, how they are stacked, and why teams are in certain pools, you should probably be more worried about how your team is playing.
the top teams could care less how the pools are done.
i never cared about pools and how they were put together. Actually , it always kind of sucked not getting to play the best teams on Saturday. if you are worried about pools, how they are stacked, and why teams are in certain pools, you should probably be more worried about how your team is playing.
the top teams could care less how the pools are done.
- Iluvblue
- Posts: 1525
- Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 11:05 pm
If you pair the young and old teams in pool play correctly, the young teams would get both a push from the older team and a team they can compete with. For the older team they would get a team they could get some #2s some play time then a team who would challenge them more.
Hogwash for me...... you should play your players no matter what your schedule is and who you play. And the younger teams getting BLASTED by the better teams is not a push to be better... it is a butt whipping. I do not understand those that think you only get better playing better teams. You can actually get BETTER playing some weaker teams as it allows you to run your plays and not have to worry about WINNING or losing. How can you work on your plays on offense if you played a team that has a pitcher that dominates you and you have no baserunners.
I could bat thousands of time against Nolan Ryan, and I bet at the end of those 1000 at bats Im still looking stupid. teams need to play against competition that is CLOSE to them, maybe a little better, and maybe a little worse, but not LEAPS AND BOUNDS better. When we just formed a new team, I always like starting off with some easy games. It would allow us to have lots of base runners and me to teach the kids what i want them to do. You cant teach them if they arent getting on base.
Hogwash for me...... you should play your players no matter what your schedule is and who you play. And the younger teams getting BLASTED by the better teams is not a push to be better... it is a butt whipping. I do not understand those that think you only get better playing better teams. You can actually get BETTER playing some weaker teams as it allows you to run your plays and not have to worry about WINNING or losing. How can you work on your plays on offense if you played a team that has a pitcher that dominates you and you have no baserunners.
I could bat thousands of time against Nolan Ryan, and I bet at the end of those 1000 at bats Im still looking stupid. teams need to play against competition that is CLOSE to them, maybe a little better, and maybe a little worse, but not LEAPS AND BOUNDS better. When we just formed a new team, I always like starting off with some easy games. It would allow us to have lots of base runners and me to teach the kids what i want them to do. You cant teach them if they arent getting on base.
- Iluvblue
- Posts: 1525
- Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 11:05 pm
1. Why would a tournament take 26 teams if it makes the brackets uneven.
Why would you deny a team the chance to play? Yes the TD gets paid more money, but since when are Ybarra's tournaments exclusive???
2. Why would the Gold Silver be split 13 teams each? It looks like there are teams that are #1 seeds who have bye's first round then a team who is #1 doesn't get a bye. How do they decide what #1 seed doesn't get a bye. If the tourney was cut at 24 it would be split 12 12. With 26 why didn't they go 14 12 so we don't have all of these bye games?
#QueueMusic These are the breaks!!! Break it up break it up breakdown! Seriously the good teams seem to rise above this and the bubble teams/mediocre teams are hung up by this. A 1 seed is playing a lower seed anyway. The extra game is more valuable than the easier road.
3. How do the pools get drawn. I think it is funny that you have pools stacked with young teams and then pools stacked with older teams. Wouldn't it make sense to mix the pools with an even number of young and old teams.
I'm under the impression coaches decide what pools they play in. Some coaches want to play better teams on Saturday.
4 I guess basically I am wondering Does ASA have a standard way to do pool play schedules or bracket Sunday play? Or are all of the tournaments like this.[/quote]
I believe the coaches want it like this. TD's cater to coaches because coaches decide where teams play!
Just something you should know...the 1st year of 14s my kids team sucked!! We were usually 1-2, 1-1-1, or something like that on Saturday then 0-1 on Sunday. I was usually home by 11am on Sunday morning. Then they messed around and got good! 2-1 on Saturday then 1-1, 2-1 on Sunday etc etc...we even were in a couple championship games. That gets you home like 7pm on Sunday. Be careful what you wish for. Your kid could mess around and become good. Then you're always on the road.
Why would you deny a team the chance to play? Yes the TD gets paid more money, but since when are Ybarra's tournaments exclusive???
2. Why would the Gold Silver be split 13 teams each? It looks like there are teams that are #1 seeds who have bye's first round then a team who is #1 doesn't get a bye. How do they decide what #1 seed doesn't get a bye. If the tourney was cut at 24 it would be split 12 12. With 26 why didn't they go 14 12 so we don't have all of these bye games?
#QueueMusic These are the breaks!!! Break it up break it up breakdown! Seriously the good teams seem to rise above this and the bubble teams/mediocre teams are hung up by this. A 1 seed is playing a lower seed anyway. The extra game is more valuable than the easier road.
3. How do the pools get drawn. I think it is funny that you have pools stacked with young teams and then pools stacked with older teams. Wouldn't it make sense to mix the pools with an even number of young and old teams.
I'm under the impression coaches decide what pools they play in. Some coaches want to play better teams on Saturday.
4 I guess basically I am wondering Does ASA have a standard way to do pool play schedules or bracket Sunday play? Or are all of the tournaments like this.[/quote]
I believe the coaches want it like this. TD's cater to coaches because coaches decide where teams play!
Just something you should know...the 1st year of 14s my kids team sucked!! We were usually 1-2, 1-1-1, or something like that on Saturday then 0-1 on Sunday. I was usually home by 11am on Sunday morning. Then they messed around and got good! 2-1 on Saturday then 1-1, 2-1 on Sunday etc etc...we even were in a couple championship games. That gets you home like 7pm on Sunday. Be careful what you wish for. Your kid could mess around and become good. Then you're always on the road.
- ICMTM
- Posts: 393
- Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:44 pm
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