Pool Play and Bracketing Questions

[Iluvblue]

By the way, Im speaking about 12u and to some extent 14u. In 16u and up, the better teams you see, the better it is for everyone.

[noncrazynorcal]

Depending on how a tourney's brackets are done. Most TD's bump to Gold Silver when they get to 16 - 20 teams. Which adds one extra round of games giving everyone a minimum of 4 games on Sunday. by doing a gold and silver it gives your top seeds 3 games bottom seed 4 games so teams do get less games.

Technically, you're correct, but not by as much you're implying.

If there are 20 teams in a single Sunday bracket, then it takes 19 games to decide the champion.

If, however, there are 20 teams split into two separate 10-team brackets, then it takes 18 game to decide the 2 champions. That's a net loss of 1 game for the entire tournament.

If there's a 30-team tournament and they're in a single bracket, it takes 29 games to decide the winner. But if they're split Gold/Silver/Bronze (10 teams each), then it's only 27 games to determine the 3 winners.

So depending upon the size of a tournament, you're talking about a 2-3% reduction in the number of games, because you still have to factor the pool play into the total number of games played. The net impact across all the teams means 1-2 fewer games COMBINED, meaning each team would lose about 1-2 games A YEAR, assuming about 20 tournaments played.

Is the loss of 1-2 games per year really a justification for eliminating Gold/Silver brackets on Sundays?

[Ovr Weight N Bald]

What is the difference with the GY tourneys that noncrazy speaks of. Maybe it is just me but I just don't see it.

I didn't say there was any difference. Please don't try to put words in my mouth.

Turret94 has complained multiple times about the lack of TD competition in our area, suggesting that we get an inferior product as a result of Gary Ybarra having an in with Kelly Jackson who has direct influence over who is allowed to promote ASA tournaments in the area. Turret states that the lack of competition is a problem.

You said you've been to tournaments run by at least 5 other organizations that have been fine. Sounds to me like there's plenty of competition and in your own words, you're saying that the events have all been fine, leading me to believe you feel like you got your money's worth.

I was never trying to put words in your mouth. If you read my OP I stated honest question no intention of slamming anyone here. That would include putting words in mouths. So please don't get you panties in a bunch as someone else has said about others in this post.

I read this comment by you "How many times have you said "we need more competition"? Go to an Ybarra-run tournament and you'll see why so many teams usually enjoy participating in them." as to say he is doing something different or special to make teams want to play there. I did not put the question out to get into the political crap I was just wondering what you thought was better or why teams might enjoy them more. Honest question, no hook attached.

As for competition yes you can play other places which do a good job. I think what Turret was referring to is ASA local competition. I will not get into the politics that is GY, GSSA and KJ but for those who have been around and understand how things work there is a lot of truth behind the politics which holds other TD's from holding ASA Tourney's in the local Sac area.

[Ovr Weight N Bald]

By the way, Im speaking about 12u and to some extent 14u. In 16u and up, the better teams you see, the better it is for everyone.

I forget about your 14u 16u side of things. That is probably where I have seen it. Thanks Blue it was and honest question for you as well. I think the bucket throws everyone on the defensive any time a question is asked.

[Iluvblue]

I dont get defensive all that often, even though it may appear that way:0

I am mostly dealing with 16 and 18s, but when we are off, I try to go to the 12u as often as possible..... since my daughter is on that team:)

[Sftball Junkie]

Depending on how a tourney's brackets are done. Most TD's bump to Gold Silver when they get to 16 - 20 teams. Which adds one extra round of games giving everyone a minimum of 4 games on Sunday. by doing a gold and silver it gives your top seeds 3 games bottom seed 4 games so teams do get less games.

Technically, you're correct, but not by as much you're implying.

If there are 20 teams in a single Sunday bracket, then it takes 19 games to decide the champion.

If, however, there are 20 teams split into two separate 10-team brackets, then it takes 18 game to decide the 2 champions. That's a net loss of 1 game for the entire tournament.

If there's a 30-team tournament and they're in a single bracket, it takes 29 games to decide the winner. But if they're split Gold/Silver/Bronze (10 teams each), then it's only 27 games to determine the 3 winners.

So depending upon the size of a tournament, you're talking about a 2-3% reduction in the number of games, because you still have to factor the pool play into the total number of games played. The net impact across all the teams means 1-2 fewer games COMBINED, meaning each team would lose about 1-2 games A YEAR, assuming about 20 tournaments played.

Is the loss of 1-2 games per year really a justification for eliminating Gold/Silver brackets on Sundays?

NCN If you read Over's post he stats everyone would get 4 games on Sunday that obviously reads that if you are a championship contender you would play the most amount of games on Sunday by making it to the Championship Game. If you are a top team you and made it to the Championship game in lets say 15 of those 20 tourneys you speak of you would get 15 more games a year.

You spent way to much time on your net impact survey.
However we did learn today that you are a typical liberal over thinking how we can make it fair for everyone and that everyone should get a medal for participating. I talked to a coach a few weeks back when I asked how they did Sunday he said we were 4 and 0 on Sunday. My response Cool you guys won the Champ game... His Response "Nope we were in Silver." He must be a republican

I am sorry but do I agree Silver, Bronze and in the case of Memorial Day Blue just means you played on Sunday. I don't call those championship games either. Just my opinion though.

[Iluvblue]

I laugh when I read that from parents..... we are in the championship of the SILVER bracket.

That means you finished about 15th or so..lol.

[noncrazynorcal]

NCN If you read Over's post he stats everyone would get 4 games on Sunday that obviously reads that if you are a championship contender you would play the most amount of games on Sunday by making it to the Championship Game. If you are a top team you and made it to the Championship game in lets say 15 of those 20 tourneys you speak of you would get 15 more games a year.

You spent way to much time on your net impact survey.
However we did learn today that you are a typical liberal over thinking how we can make it fair for everyone and that everyone should get a medal for participating. I talked to a coach a few weeks back when I asked how they did Sunday he said we were 4 and 0 on Sunday. My response Cool you guys won the Champ game... His Response "Nope we were in Silver." He must be a republican

I am sorry but do I agree Silver, Bronze and in the case of Memorial Day Blue just means you played on Sunday. I don't call those championship games either. Just my opinion though.

I used the terms champions and winners for convenience in the discussion. Obviously being the last team standing in Silver doesn't make a team the tournament champion.

My statement has nothing to do with fairness. It's not my concern, nor did I mention it. The point of my post was to show why the argument of getting fewer games was technically true, but misleading. Even in your response you say a consistent contender would get an extra game each Sunday. But in a tournament with a broad range of competitiveness, what is the benefit of an extra game vs a significantly overmatched opponent? You're talking about fairness, but my focus is more on getting better games for every team, which is why I am not opposed to the Gold/Silver split when there's a wide team skill range.

Coaches who don't like Gold/Silver have the option of avoiding those tournaments, you know, like good non-liberals would.

[Sftball Junkie]

Coaches who don't like Gold/Silver have the option of avoiding those tournaments, you know, like good non-liberals would.

Hey we might be getting somewhere here!!!! I say we let the teams who are not the Top Teams pay 90% of the entry fees and the Top Teams pay only 10%. Top Teams play more games so they spend more at the snack bars and keeping the snack bar staff employed, Top Teams play more keeping the ump's employed, Top Teams should get a game relief exemption on fees making their entry fee less as a result. Only issue is what to do with the teams who do not win a game during the weekend. Maybe we offer free lesson's to help them get better paid for by the top teams of course so they might have another deduction on future tourneys!!!