Win in your age bracket before you try and move to an older

[lookingIN]

Was looking at the teams signed up for the Grapettes tournament and saw a lot of teams playing up. If you cant win a tournament at your age group, why the hell would you want to move up to the next level? It just kills me when you see a team that does not belong. And I am talking about the 18U. Don't want to put the name out there but at least win at your level before you play with the big dogs.

[Kool-Aid]

This is common place in NorCal, scary thing is, its getting worse and worse. Sad thing is if you look at 18's you will see not ONE legit gold team in the mix, and i dont blame them for not. Plus, its a SAT weekend, so most of the higher end teams request kids to take the exam and opt out of any tourney, why wouldnt you from the looks of the teams. Its pretty much over for the Fall for the better Gold teams, maybe one more Surf City event if you like to risk the rained out Thanksgiving:)

[CTCBAT]

Most of the notable teams play elsewhere and truly travel. Grapes tourneys are well attended in the true 14U age. Other than that it varies from tourney. Playing better competition comes before winning a tournament in October. The prize is a nationals berth (PGF then ASA) not a Grapettes tournament win.

[jbl1465]

CTC I agree with the better competition part but if you are not winning tournaments at your age group or at least playing deep into Sunday do you really need better competition? Also are the older better teams going to pitch their better pitchers and play their A line up? Im not throwing stones Im truly asking because my daughters team has talked about playing up but I dont know if that is the answer or is travelling to find better competition in our age group a better choice. What are your thoughts?

[onlooker]

Most of the notable teams play elsewhere and truly travel. Grapes tourneys are well attended in the true 14U age. Other than that it varies from tourney. Playing better competition comes before winning a tournament in October. The prize is a nationals berth (PGF then ASA) not a Grapettes tournament win.

Pretty good stuff here.

Keyword - Notable teams.

Although they are populated, the Grapettes 14U tourney's are well attended by the '00 14's. I dont think the '99 teams in the 14U grapes tourney this weekend are Notable by any stretch (Grapes 99 (Stockton) and Heat 99 (Sacramento) to name a couple). So that points to the other side of the spectrum too. Lose to '00 teams in 14U as a 99 or lose to 97/98/99 teams if you play up in the 16U with some/most of the other talented teams in your age group. That's a tough pill to swallow when one and done if playing an '00, but its also funny when the chests start to stick out when winning one of these as a 99 vs the '00's.

The 16U has several (counted 7 or 8 at first look) 99 teams. Regardless of the label 16U, its where the age group talent as a whole is playing (FC, KG, and Sorcerer to name 3 "NOTABLE"), therefore, if you find yourself as a 99 and NOT in the 16U, odds are you are in for a long spring and summer, assuming you get through fall.

In other words, dont get caught up in the age group "label" they are playing in or up to, find out where the talented teams in your age group are playing and JOIN THEM. It doesnt take much to see what teams belong and what dont. the label 16U or 14U up here really only truly applies in qualifiers and the like. However, what doesnt apply, should be worrisome and is easily identifiable is continued playing down, watch out for this more than playing up.

[CTCBAT]

CTC I agree with the better competition part but if you are not winning tournaments at your age group or at least playing deep into Sunday do you really need better competition? Also are the older better teams going to pitch their better pitchers and play their A line up? Im not throwing stones Im truly asking because my daughters team has talked about playing up but I dont know if that is the answer or is travelling to find better competition in our age group a better choice. What are your thoughts?

Well there is a separate scenario of people (not) knowing how good they are mixed in there. I'll give you a general summary of what I see. There are certain teams that will play up THE ENTIRE YEAR but play their age for championship play. Generally speaking though Onlooker made a good point. Play teams you're able to compete against and use that as your measurement versus the age you're playing in.

To you're next question...I can't give you a straight answer because playing up is usually in lieu of traveling for better competition. My thinking is if you can't be in that group who can constantly compete at the tournament you're in then maybe it's not where you should be?

[Dozerdog]

CTC I agree with the better competition part but if you are not winning tournaments at your age group or at least playing deep into Sunday do you really need better competition? Also are the older better teams going to pitch their better pitchers and play their A line up? Im not throwing stones Im truly asking because my daughters team has talked about playing up but I dont know if that is the answer or is travelling to find better competition in our age group a better choice. What are your thoughts?

Well there is a separate scenario of people (not) knowing how good they are mixed in there. I'll give you a general summary of what I see. There are certain teams that will play up THE ENTIRE YEAR but play their age for championship play. Generally speaking though Onlooker made a good point. Play teams you're able to compete against and use that as your measurement versus the age you're playing in.

To you're next question...I can't give you a straight answer because playing up is usually in lieu of traveling for better competition. My thinking is if you can't be in that group who can constantly compete at the tournament you're in then maybe it's not where you should be?

Very well put. Couldnt ask for a better explanation.

[CTCBAT]

Tournaments/Tournament Directors can be to blame for the majority of the confusion.

We will pick out one of GT23's old rankings where he would rank 20-25 teams. The top 3-5 teams really were in the same class. The next 5 teams would compete with the top teams. The next ten teams would be another class of teams, and then there is everyone else. Now if I pick out any local tournament you will see about a handful of the teams from this list at a specific event. There are usually 20 teams in a decent size tournament per age group, but if only a handful of these "ranked" teams are in them where does everyone else come from? Who invited them? Did anyone refuse entry? What is a TD's incentive to keep the field small and competitive?

The TD's don't have the responsibility to keep out weak teams. Why would a weak team think they had a shot in competing? There are too many age groups.

Kids play their age for the most part until 14's. Think in terms of playing your age throughout. If people truly played their age college freshmen would come back to play 18G. That would move kids down into 16U etc etc. Since College freshmen often do not play travel ball why is there space for them? Teams are skipping the 2nd year of 14s and moving up. Others are moving their players from 2nd year 14's to Gold. There is no such thing as an age pure 2nd year 16U team. If you're a HS Jr (same age as a true 2nd year 16 kid) and you can't make a gold roster You're probably not an A ball kid. So with that logic, and all these kids moving up, it creates the space for these fring rec/comp ball teams to try their hand at open A ball tournaments.

What's the solution? Less age divisions! Instead on 10,12,14,16,18 you do 11,13,15,Gold. There will still be playups, and there will still be kids who play above their age, but what this does is makes less holes to stick average to below average teams. This tighten's up the slack in the 16U division as well. This follows more closely to what teams are doing.

Now how would a TD feel if you took away an age group? It's likely not going to happen.

[Fly Out]

As someone who has hosted tournaments, I agree with your point but I really don't think it would make a big difference in the number of teams at an event, so I doubt it would really matter to the average TD. As you said, teams will still play up either way. Teams play up all the time and compete which I think helps create some of the issue. Parents are horrible about self evaluating their own child, which also makes them horrible at self evaluating their own team. As a result they look at a team they play close in a friendly, or on a Saturday / Sunday and think, well if they are playing up and competing we can!!! Problem is they don't look at the fact the other team is not pitching the #1 or playing their starting infield etc...

Personally I like the 11 13 15 Gold, When most 2nd yr 14s play up and most 2nd yr 16s play up why not do it. I think it would be a positive for the young age group as well by helping the pitchers. Keep the small ball in the hand until 13s so they would transition to 40ft with the small ball, when the girls are a little larger and can grip the bigger ball better, make the large ball and 43 ft transition at 13s.

My feeling is College Recruiting is to blame. We now have 8th graders getting verballed to large D1 schools. Who knows at 13 what they want to do as a career or where they want to go to school. Not to mention the players who develop late and now get to deal with the fact that the majority of the money is gone from the big schools.

Fix the recruiting issues and that helps the play up issue go away.

[onlooker]

Pretty good stuff here.

Keyword - Notable teams.

Although they are populated, the Grapettes 14U tourney's are well attended by the '00 14's. I dont think the '99 teams in the 14U grapes tourney this weekend are Notable by any stretch (Grapes 99 (Stockton) and Heat 99 (Sacramento) to name a couple). So that points to the other side of the spectrum too. Lose to '00 teams in 14U as a 99 or lose to 97/98/99 teams if you play up in the 16U with some/most of the other talented teams in your age group. That's a tough pill to swallow when one and done if playing an '00, but its also funny when the chests start to stick out when winning one of these as a 99 vs the '00's.

The 16U has several (counted 7 or 8 at first look) 99 teams. Regardless of the label 16U, its where the age group talent as a whole is playing (FC, KG, and Sorcerer to name 3 "NOTABLE"), therefore, if you find yourself as a 99 and NOT in the 16U, odds are you are in for a long spring and summer, assuming you get through fall.

Hmmm, after a long day at the ballpark, a short sleep, I go review the trny this weekend. WOW, talk about hitting a nail on the head.

in the 14's, the 2 99 teams I referenced above were both 1 and done on sunday playing down in 14's. Yikes. At some point daddy ball simply fails. Maybe they should combine and make one team?
In 16's KG and Sorcerer made it to the championship. Great job both teams. It's pretty easy to see the talent folks. If you find yourself stuck in daddy ball, or stuck with a coach who has HIGH turnover, might be time to step away. Spring tryouts are upon us, dont hold your DD back. The talented teams have room for talented players, dont miss your opportunity.