PGF goes on record

[freetacos]

Read this very slowly and tell me it's not about the bucks.

"The impact of the policy on PGF and other associations, as well as its impact upon the public in general, cannot be overlooked. ASA has used and abused its position as NGB and monopoly to exclude competitors like PGF (among others) from the market of junior women’s competitive softball, particularly in regard to qualifying tournaments. By requiring play in an ASA Gold qualifier tournament, rather than in any of the equally competitive regional or national tournaments sponsored by PGF or other softball associations, as a condition to eligibility for selection to the U.S. Women’s Junior National Team, ASA unlawfully restricts trade by depriving the softball players of the opportunity to play with their association of choice and in their tournament of choice (and be selected to the National Team based upon merit, rather than affiliation with ASA). In addition, ASA effectively operates as a monopoly and has used its market share and position as the NGB to excluded competitors like PGF from the market for Women’s Junior competitive softball. PGF and other softball associations will be compelled to pursue relief for the damages caused thereby in the event ASA fails to immediately rescind the policy."

Those are pgf words...not mine

ft

[ontheblack]

Which ever abc org puts on the qualifiers is the one that makes the bucks...That's all this is about.

Now seriously...shoot me some factual numbers...20? 500?
It's all bs. Talk about wearing blinders.

ft

Are you saying that PGF wants a part of the qualifier action?

[MavFan]

Read this very slowly and tell me it's not about the bucks.

"The impact of the policy on PGF and other associations, as well as its impact upon the public in general, cannot be overlooked. ASA has used and abused its position as NGB and monopoly to exclude competitors like PGF (among others) from the market of junior women’s competitive softball, particularly in regard to qualifying tournaments. By requiring play in an ASA Gold qualifier tournament, rather than in any of the equally competitive regional or national tournaments sponsored by PGF or other softball associations, as a condition to eligibility for selection to the U.S. Women’s Junior National Team, ASA unlawfully restricts trade by depriving the softball players of the opportunity to play with their association of choice and in their tournament of choice (and be selected to the National Team based upon merit, rather than affiliation with ASA). In addition, ASA effectively operates as a monopoly and has used its market share and position as the NGB to excluded competitors like PGF from the market for Women’s Junior competitive softball. PGF and other softball associations will be compelled to pursue relief for the damages caused thereby in the event ASA fails to immediately rescind the policy."

Those are pgf words...not mine

ft

Looks to me to be a battle of hypocrisy over monopoly. My kid probably doesn't have a realistic chance of making the JNT so I really don't care how they select the team on a personal level.

But I find PGF using arguments like "ASA...has used its market share and position as the NGB to exclude competitors like PGF from the market for Women's Junior competitive softball", as a bit insulting to organizations like TCS, USSSA, NSA, ISA and others who have been excluded since the inception of the JNT, not just the past 6 months that PGF has been excluded.

Secondly, I am pretty sure the board at PGF, and all teams that play exclusively PGF, didn't really care about how big of a monopoly ASA had in the selection process of the JNT when those teams were playing ASA. Now that it effects their players, all of a sudden they have an issue with the monopoly that ASA has over the selection process.

I don't like the new selection process at all but to write something so disingenuous is almost sickening. As far as the selection for the JNT goes, PGF doesn't care about USSSA or TCS or anyone else, they only care about the kids on their teams that, at this point in time, will not be included in the selection pool. To try and champion this cause in the name of all the little people is laughable.

[ontheblack]

I am pretty sure the board at PGF, and all teams that play exclusively PGF, didn't really care about how big of a monopoly ASA had in the selection process of the JNT when those teams were playing ASA. Now that it effects their players, all of a sudden they have an issue with the monopoly that ASA has over the selection process.

ASA has always had control over the selection process because they are the NGB. That isnt the issue. The issue is that the selection process was abruptly changed and leaves kids out. There is nothing there at all that has anything to do with revenue.

This is only about the rights of girls across the country to be considered for the JNT by the same process that existed last year. It doesnt matter if that is 10 girls or 1000. How anyone can come to the conclusion that reverting back to last year's selection process will produce additional revenue to PGF is baffling. If you think otherwise, please explain to me exactly how and where rescinding this current JNT selection policy will add to PGF's bottom line next year.

[MavFan]

I am pretty sure the board at PGF, and all teams that play exclusively PGF, didn't really care about how big of a monopoly ASA had in the selection process of the JNT when those teams were playing ASA. Now that it effects their players, all of a sudden they have an issue with the monopoly that ASA has over the selection process.

ASA has always had control over the selection process because they are the NGB. That isnt the issue. The issue is that the selection process was abruptly changed and leaves kids out. There is nothing there at all that has anything to do with revenue.

This is only about the rights of girls across the country to be considered for the JNT by the same process that existed last year. It doesnt matter if that is 10 girls or 1000. How anyone can come to the conclusion that reverting back to last year's selection process will produce additional revenue to PGF is baffling. If you think otherwise, please explain to me exactly how and where rescinding this current JNT selection policy will add to PGF's bottom line next year.

You are obviously not understanding my post. My post says that ASA has always had control over the selection process. The selection committee or whatever, never went down to the USSSA national tournament in Orlando or whereever they held it. The never visited the Pony national when making their selections for the JNT. On that we agree. We also agree that the selection process sucks. I think all kids age eligible should be in the selection pool regardless of what organization they are associated with.

My issue is more with the wording of the letter. Mr. Hay and Mr Haning are trying to play the victim and the little guy. My opinion is that is the definition of hypocrisy because when they were part of ASA and their kids made up 50% of the team, they weren't campaigning to make sure all the kids outside of ASA were included in the selection process. They were only concerned with their players. In my opinion to try to include themselves as part of the underserved and discriminated with USSA, TCS etc is laughable.

I didn't say anything about revenue. I don't think it has to do with money. It is all ego, to include coaches, ASA and PGF.

[Makina]

I'm really curious if there is any truth to the following:

PGF was going to have some really well known USA National players show-up to PGF. ASA told those players if they showed up at PGF, they would be banned from the USA National team.

[NumeroUno]

Last year I was coaching a game in the fall and after the game I was talking to the guy from the other team. I asked him what his plan was for the summer PGF or ASA. He said "well my daughter has a chance to play for the national team and ASA to me if we didn't play ASA she would have no chance to play"

I have no Idea if it is true but I don't think he would make something like that up.

[Skarp]

Reading this mush of a thread gave me a headache. A little clarity:

1. This is a business dispute. It is about money. More precisely, it is about competition for customers (i.e., participating teams/players). Hay and Haning make no bones about this: "In addition, ASA effectively operates as a monopoly and has used its market share and position as the NGB to excluded competitors like PGF from the market for Women’s Junior competitive softball. PGF and other softball associations will be compelled to pursue relief for the damages caused thereby in the event ASA fails to immediately rescind the policy"

2. There is nothing remotely problematic or nefarious about the fact that this dispute is driven by private interests and a profit motive, and comments to the contrary are asinine. Without a profit motive this whole conversation would be moot, because there wouldn't be any tournaments anywhere.

3. There IS something problematic (and illegal) about employing anti-competitive tactics to gain an unfair business advantage, which is what PGF is alleging, and what ASA is apparently doing.

4. "How many kids that have the skills to play on jnt will be left out?" misses the point entirely. Very few players actually wind up making the national team. Some larger number are reasonably competitive for a spot, but are not chosen. An exponentially larger number believe that they are competitive but really are not. And many more want to play with and compete against the very best players, wherever they play. If the top players will only play ASA, then teams wishing to recruit the top players will switch to ASA, and all of the aforementioned players will compete in ASA rather than PGF. ASA's new mandate has nothing to do with the national team; it's about realigning customer incentives in its favor. It's about reestablishing itself as the preeminent softball organization in the country...and thereby effectively putting PGF out of business. Top teams don't converge on Huntington Beach every summer for the weather. They come because PGF now offers the best product...the most competitive brand of softball. Take that away and PGF is dead.

5. Accusing Hay and Haning of "hypocrisy" is nonsensical on more levels than I can count. Suffice it for now simply to say that the interests of business owners in competition with ASA (Hay/Haning's present role) are vastly different from the interests of team managers who are customers of ASA (Hay/Haning's former role). Equating the two is absurd.

[MavFan]

Again.....it is not their positions as owners that I am questioning. It is the fact that they are trying to buddy up to, and team up with, the smaller organizations, as if they, Hay and Haning, have always been part of that group. That, to me, is like a long time CEO leaving Nike to start up a new company and then teaming up with Pony and Puma and claiming Nike has all the power and is abusing power. The same power that the executive created as an employee of Nike.

If the gentleman want to fight this stupid rule change, then by all means fight it. Just don't insult people's intelligence by claiming that ASA has always ignored the other organizations now that you are no longer associated with ASA, becasue when you were part of ASA you didn't care that the other organizations were ignored.

[Grey Beard]

You don't quite understand the issue. ASA is using its monopoly power in the relevant market (operating the Junior National Team) in a way that harms its competitors. Their conduct ultimately hurts all market particpiants, organizors and players. All the other softball organizations that provide opportunities for our girls to play in our free market economy as well as the players whose choice not to play in ASA sanctioned tournaments have now been deprived of the opportunity to play on the JNT should be troubled by this illegal misuse of the monopoly power held by ASA. It is not surprising that PGF, ASA's largest competitor, is willing to take the lead on stopping ASA's abuse of its monopoly, for the ultimate benefit of all organizations and players. It has the most skin in the game. ASA's conduct is a classic illegal tying arrangement. ASA is making consumers purchase a product over which they do not have monopoly power (i.e. pay to play in ASA sactioned tournament) as a condition to purchasing a product over which they have monopoly power (i.e. play on the JNT). It is an illegal use of power. And, yes, I am an attorney.