ASA get lost

[NoTimeForChores]

I heard the Triple Crown and Fox TV rumor as well. Is it actually true? If so it could be a total game changer.

[jmo]

I heard the Triple Crown and Fox TV rumor as well. Is it actually true? If so it could be a total game changer.

They will be televising the semifinals and the final game at the New York Nationals. They already televise the challenge between the Sparkler and Fireworks.

[triplecrown]

I agree with Uno & Spaz. You dont like it dont go.

Off point here but from what I have heard, I would look for Triple Crown to make a big push at hosting Nationals in Colorado by combining Sparkler , Firework & Independence into 1 huge national..... Maybe not Indepence but at least the other 2. TCS already has TV contracts with Fox Sports & they already are attracting over 800 teams from all over the country to the Greater Denver area. And probly the largest gathering of recruiters then any other tournament. It is more centrally located & they have plenty of good fields.

With all the ASA vs. Premier seems like a golden oppertunity for them to capitolize.

Actually, Triple Crown is hosting an Elite 18U Tournament in July, 2012 in Manhattan, New York. There will be no qualifiers. It will be by rankings for the most part except for "At-Large" bids to be handed out by TC. Only a few teams of the top ranked teams have committed to attending at this time.

I doubt you will see very many West coast teams in the NY event, adding another expenditure to a already cash strapped TB parent is insane.You think HB or PGF hotels are expensive, have you looked at rooms in or around Manhattan, let alone the airfare and food in NY, no thanks

[UmpSteve]

I do not think the kickback is as big as you would expect. They are like 100k or so, which is peanuts compared to what they are making.

A few items steer nationals to these same locations over and over.

1) These towns understand it is the umpires that make things happen at ASA. They lay out huge spreads for the umpires. Free ballrooms at hotels for umpire workshops, free sandwiches at the fields, luncheons and beer mixers. Umpires tend to fill out review forms, coaches do not.

2) These towns are politically intertwined with ASA. For instance, James Ellis is employed is the Athletic Director for Johnson City TN Parks and Rec department. He is also the state commissioner for Tennessee ASA. In other words he constructs Johnson City's ASA bid, submits it to ASA, takes off his Jonson City hat, puts on his ASA hat and votes in favor of his own proposal.

3) There is an voting block at ASA. It includes Johnson City, TN, Montgomery AL and Midland TX. They all vote for each others proposal. This ensures that each of them will get a nationals every year.

There are some accurate statements in this post. However, there are several inaccuracies.

The last bid numbers in my hands are the 2010 Nationals. Chattanooga paid $10k plus 400 per team (approx $32k more) for 10U, Bloomington, IN paid $6500 plus 400 per team (maybe $36k), for 12U, Moline, IL paid $10k plus 400 per team (maybe $48k), for 14U, College Station, TX bid $0 plus 400 per team (maybe 64K) for 16U, and Columbus, GA paid $5k plus $400 per team (maybe 48k) for 18A. The 18 Gold isn't publicly bid, but I would bet no more than $10k plus 400 per team (another $25k). The highest paying tournament is more like $64k, not $100k.

At one time in the past, umpires did fill out review forms. And, some of the "favorite" spots didn't like the reviews. So, it has been AT LEAST five years since any umpire other than the assigned UIC (and in these Nationals, always a National Staff UIC) had an opportunity to review the site. I can say this as a FACT having attended 23 ASA Nationals as an umpire, and 8 as the ASA Office Rep in my career.

Conversely, the teams are absolutely HOUNDED to return review forms, as each site is marked down as a FAILURE if they do not return a very high percentage of review forms. ASA National sites have resorted to all forms of tactics to FORCE the teams to submit review forms. So, if these sites are so bad, how do they consistently report the highest ratings??

[AlwaysImprove]

I do not think the kickback is as big as you would expect. They are like 100k or so, which is peanuts compared to what they are making.

A few items steer nationals to these same locations over and over.

1) These towns understand it is the umpires that make things happen at ASA. They lay out huge spreads for the umpires. Free ballrooms at hotels for umpire workshops, free sandwiches at the fields, luncheons and beer mixers. Umpires tend to fill out review forms, coaches do not.

2) These towns are politically intertwined with ASA. For instance, James Ellis is employed is the Athletic Director for Johnson City TN Parks and Rec department. He is also the state commissioner for Tennessee ASA. In other words he constructs Johnson City's ASA bid, submits it to ASA, takes off his Jonson City hat, puts on his ASA hat and votes in favor of his own proposal.

3) There is an voting block at ASA. It includes Johnson City, TN, Montgomery AL and Midland TX. They all vote for each others proposal. This ensures that each of them will get a nationals every year.

There are some accurate statements in this post. However, there are several inaccuracies.

The last bid numbers in my hands are the 2010 Nationals. Chattanooga paid $10k plus 400 per team (approx $32k more) for 10U, Bloomington, IN paid $6500 plus 400 per team (maybe $36k), for 12U, Moline, IL paid $10k plus 400 per team (maybe $48k), for 14U, College Station, TX bid $0 plus 400 per team (maybe 64K) for 16U, and Columbus, GA paid $5k plus $400 per team (maybe 48k) for 18A. The 18 Gold isn't publicly bid, but I would bet no more than $10k plus 400 per team (another $25k). The highest paying tournament is more like $64k, not $100k.

At one time in the past, umpires did fill out review forms. And, some of the "favorite" spots didn't like the reviews. So, it has been AT LEAST five years since any umpire other than the assigned UIC (and in these Nationals, always a National Staff UIC) had an opportunity to review the site. I can say this as a FACT having attended 23 ASA Nationals as an umpire, and 8 as the ASA Office Rep in my career.

Conversely, the teams are absolutely HOUNDED to return review forms, as each site is marked down as a FAILURE if they do not return a very high percentage of review forms. ASA National sites have resorted to all forms of tactics to FORCE the teams to submit review forms. So, if these sites are so bad, how do they consistently report the highest ratings??

Good, my point was that ASA does not really pick the location because ASA makes a ton of money for having it at that location. You confirm that.

Teams do not fill out review forms because they know the results. ASA will be held in Johnson City TN, Montgomery AL and Midland TX. After 8 days of 1 or 2 games a day everyone on the team is sick of each other and just want to get going.

[AlwaysImprove]

As a 10u parent and first full year of travel ball I can finally see what all the fuss is about first hand. The 10u are having to play Nationals in no man's land Johnson City Tennessee for 10 days while ASA nickel and dimes us to death every day ($10 cover charge $5 youth to get in fields) while we suffer in 90 something degree weather 80% humidity. Oh and to make it worse there is absolutely nothing to do out there. I don't mind spending the money but if I am it better be somewhere we will enjoy. Your telling me this is the best location ASA could find or the best place for them to make the most money! Let's keep it For Real!!

I can see now how some of you who have been doing this for many years be frustrated at this monopoly ASA has got away with and I hope PGF comes through with 12u next year. I think we should alternate between So Cal and Florida every year to make it fair for both coasts and nobody will complain because both places have the great weather and attractions.

1. It doesn't go for 10 days.
2. Like NU said you are going to play softball. You want a vacation go to Disney
3. Take the opportunity to explore a part of the country you may never see. It's beautiful country there.
4. The weather wasn't bad there. A few thunderstorms, girls love the thunder and lightening.
5. Check out some of the BBQ places like The Firehouse, good eats.
I wish we were going to TN this year, so do my players.

Teams predominantly break into two categories. They are either contenders and what to play 'A' ball or not contenders, call em 'B' teams, that just like to have a fun end of the year tournament they can try and compete to win.

For the 'A' teams, you go where the 'A' teams are going. Most 'A' teams are made of families that get along ok, but may not be looking to go on vacation together.

It would be nice that is reasonably accessible for travel, has reasonable weather (not midland), you are not held to a single game a day or two games a day drip drip drip backloaded schedule, they did not double charge you for hotel rooms and have 25% city tax on hotels. It was pretty clear for a lot of years as soon as someone was able to attract a few of the better teams to a tournament and not force these other aspects, teams were wanting to jump ship on ASA. Should be no surprise that it happened.

Yeah, Johnson City is not that bad of a place, the weather is not really that bad. When you have a tournament that is 8 days, held in a place where most people will have to drive 4 hours from an airport. You are looking at 10 days, for a tournament that could take 4 days. Add in that they are asking for 50% markup and 25% taxes, it adds up real fast. For $90 a night hotel room you will be paying $160 a night. A tournament held like PGF is going to cost 90*5=450, double that for gas and food, and you get $900. For ASA you are going to pay $165*10*2 = $3300. That is 3300-900=$2200 in additional unnecessary expense per family. Figure average teams is 12 kids, that is $26,400 additional per team. That is a big number.

Yeah, if you are one of those big teams from CA, that typically go to a top 20/top 10 finish $24,000 may not seem like a lot. Take into account that half of the teams there are going to 0-2 and q. Plus it is a romantic thought that if you 0-2 you just rush down to the nearest airport and grab a flight out. It has never worked, planes were always full and you end up stuck in the airport.

If you are on one of those big teams, you get berth previous year or in May, then you actually get flights to Bristol, TN instead of Charlotte, NC. You also have a chance to get a room at one of the three decent hotels in town. Get a decent van to drive the team. Try being one of those teams that has to schedule 12 families to Johnson City, TN leaving in 13 days. Try doing it from Seattle. You are looking at red eye flights, sleeping in airports. It is impossible. No decent sized vehicles to rent. Now try doing it to LA, it will take about 15 mins.

It does not have to be LA. It can be St. Louis, or Atlanta or Ft. Lauderdale or Chicago or Indianapolis or Cincinnati or Minneapolis or Milwaukee or Denver or any of 100's of towns that have decent air port. Anywhere you are within a 30 mins of an airport. Even Soux city South Dakota was ok.

For the more fun oriented teams a tournament location that is more of a destination makes sense. If you are not picking a team to be the best possible competitive place for your kid, then you are probably picking a team with families that are compatible with your family. If you are on less competitive team a tournament at Disneyland makes 100% sense.

Again, no one should be surprised that everyone was so anxious to bale on ASA. Teams had been giving ASA the feedback they needed for years. ASA response was stuff it coach, and no matter who you are telling your customers to stuff it never flies.

[AlwaysImprove]

The last bid numbers in my hands are the 2010 Nationals. Chattanooga paid $10k plus 400 per team (approx $32k more) for 10U, Bloomington, IN paid $6500 plus 400 per team (maybe $36k), for 12U, Moline, IL paid $10k plus 400 per team (maybe $48k), for 14U, College Station, TX bid $0 plus 400 per team (maybe 64K) for 16U, and Columbus, GA paid $5k plus $400 per team (maybe 48k) for 18A. The 18 Gold isn't publicly bid, but I would bet no more than $10k plus 400 per team (another $25k). The highest paying tournament is more like $64k, not $100k.

If your numbers per team are correct then in 2010 for 14u there were, I believe, 150+ teams.
So
72k+
Add in the entry fees for another 70k+. Gate fees for parents on top of that have to be close to another 100k+++ (45/wk for a pass, 14 kids per team. ONE parent per kid)
I thought I heard LM cut a check for close to 100k for 18A nationals in Hemet.
Where does this money go?

I do know that last year we were not allowed to draw for our bracket spot until we turned in our evaluation form. One big problem is how do you rate a week long tournament after the first two days????
Umpires, fields, facilities...Lind of early to make a true judgment.

The problem with the evaluation form is that it asks things like:
Were the fields in good shape? Rate the facility. Were the restrooms clean. Were there adequate choices at the snack bar? Rate the umpires. Was the townspeople nice. Were new softballs available?

Nothing that gets to the point of the problem.

The facility at Johnson City is absolutely first class. Great fields, covered areas, shade, great snack bar, great restaurants in town. I do not think you can find a friendlier bunch of people to host a tournament. Everything that is asked about on the eval form is an A++. The mayor shows up for the coaches meeting. The mayor goes out of his way to personally ask for any input on how they can improve the tournament.

What are you going to tell him? Quit jacking the rates for the rooms (He smiles at you like that chesire cat in Alice in Wonderland). Shorten the tournament to a reasonable length (He points at ASA). Charge a reasonable gate fee (He points at ASA). Move your town close to decent airport (I did not actually provide this feedback).

It was always clear to me, if someone came up with a reasonable alternative, and were able to get a few good teams committed most teams were anxious to leave ASA.

[for real]

There is a lot to do in Johnson City it us called softball. You are there for a national tourney which is an honor. Travelling across the country dealing with the elements playing teams from all over the USA sounds great to me. Watch out what you wish for and enjoy your nationals

Thanks for the advice. We will just continue to bend over for them because it's an HONOR! Glad you made me see the light I feel so much better.

Sure we are there for a National Tourney first and foremost but why can't we expect the best overall locations for these well deserving teams who have sacrificed all year to play in this prestigious tournament.

Always Improve thanks for you insight. It's good to hear from someone who's been through it and tells it like it is.

[NumeroUno]

and when little Susie went on to college her team made it to the NCAA D-1 world series in wonderful Oklahoma where the weather was warm to say the least the humidity was off the chart, the city was everything but exciting. The bugs were the size of crows. Someone started a petition the name was never revealed that they should have played the series in Beverly Hills, with swimming pools and movie stars.

[Joe]

and when little Susie went on to college her team made it to the NCAA D-1 world series in wonderful Oklahoma where the weather was warm to say the least the humidity was off the chart, the city was everything but exciting. The bugs were the size of crows. Someone started a petition the name was never revealed that they should have played the series in Beverly Hills, with swimming pools and movie stars.

OKC in early June vs. Midland in August...in the frickin' desert?

Yes indeed, Susie says Oklahoma IS "wonderful".